Honda CX 500 Forum banner
1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,517 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I spent many evenings race tuning blowing up small two stroke motors running methanol and nitromethane with a little castor. Both Methanol and Ethanol are solvents and corrosive agents. They are great for cleaning rust from tanks and sending it through your carbs and motor.
The problem is also exacerbated by their hygroscopic nature... Just add water (like condensation in partially filled tanks) and you have seriously compromised fuel. Crap won't run... and will rust up your internals. Oh the joy of a chainsaw with it's first dose of ethanol... FAAAK! I see the pilots here are not to enthused about it either...






Our race engines were entirely cleaned with oil to remove any old fuel residue from the crankcase, sleeve, exhaust etc... otherwise an engine might just sieze from having a nice rust producing chemical left in it.



So now we have teflon lined tanks in cars and corrosive fuel resistant systems built in them... what about my boat and it's Steel Tanks, do I need to have then lined now? What about my classic car or motorcycle ? Am I left with a choice of not using it because I cannot get a proper fuel? This absolutley sucks on so many levels. A corrupt government bought out by "special" interests... what's new. I think I;m going to give up my car and use the bicycle and motorbike for transpo (maybe even the bus). If I cannot win, I quit!




Seriously: Write your legislator, let him or her know that their job depends on taking care of you and not agrico or cargill. nothing will change unless we CHANGE it. I for one, believe that ethanol free gasolines should be grandfathered as availiable to us... at least until Nancy and O bummer come up with a plan to buy and replace my vehicles with something that will run on corn...



rant amongst yourselves
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,601 Posts
Congress is corrupt, and if you write 99% of the time all you get is a generalized response fromone of their aids.



As since the start of time it's all lobbyists who have the major sway in political decisions, and the corn farmers (and so-called ecologists) have huge influence. Anther problem is that 95% of the general public doesn't own a boat, motorcycle, chain saw or even a lawnmower for that matter.



Perhaps the best argument is while everyone will agree that your mpg will go down (there's less energy in a gallon of ethanol than a gallon of gas) but they don't consider that if you lose 10% mpg you end up burning 11% more fuel to go the same distance. This means that you're actually burning 1% MORE gasoline AND the ethanol to go the same distance.



Newer cars deal with it better for the most extent but not all of them. Congressmen and lobbyists all drive new cars (thanks to us) and they could care less how much gas they use or how long they last because we pay for it all anyway.



Public news sources are biased too, they wouldn't dare write a tory that might offend someone by actually telling the truth.



Gasoline = 116,090 btu/gal

Ethanol = 76,330 btu/gal



E10 = 112,114 btu/gal (if it's uncontaminated with any moisture)

E85 = 82,294 btu/gal (if it's uncontaminated with any moisture)



My 1996 car gets around 26.4 mpg on 100% gasoline but only around 24 mpg on E10

It is fully OBD-II computer controlled but has trouble adjusting to it, if I go into the computer with my OBD-II diagnostic equipment I can see that it's subtracting fuel from the equation in order to try and compensate but can't do it perfectly; I often get the SES light on for a while if I've had to switch over and fill up with E10. I can honestly say it doesn't know how to compensate as during my last trip to Denver & the mountains where the air is thinner due to altitude (and E10 is mandatory) I still lost the mpg but didn't notice as bad an effect on the performance as I would have here.



If I drive 1,000 miles on 100% gasoline I'll burn 37.88 gallons of fuel

If I drive 1,000 miles on E10 blend gas I'll burn 41.67 gallons of fuel



WHAT GETS ME is if they worked this properly (as once intended) there would be vastly increased availability of E85 for the Flex-Fuel vehicles to use AND it would be priced much lower to make it more attractive to those that can use it. This is not the case, I know of only two places in this city area of over 1,000,000 people that sell E85 and it's not priced low enough to make it attractive as an alternative.



IF we got more E85 stations and IF we made it economically attractive to use it then the Federal requirement that X gallons of Ethanol must be sold per year there would be no problem meeting that number and they could leave the regular pump gasoline st 100%.



Ethanol costs more to make than they're letting on (especially since the government kicks in subsidies all along the way) and the rush to plant corn (a very hard crop on land) is messing all sorts of things up. It requires a lot of fertilizer which is prmarily made using Methane (a petroleum product) in the process.



Notice the price of bread over the past several years? More incentive to grow corn than wheat. In actuality it's affected the price of a large number of food products including all grains, milk, meat and about half of everything else down the line.



Ethanol can't be transported in our vast pipeline system since it corrodes the pipes thus it has to be trucked or railed to very near the point of use.



The list goes on and on.



IF they started working on it we might have a halfway decent infrastructure to deal with ethanol as a fuel in 10 years but when they can get away with things by just dumping it into regular gasoline what's the point?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,517 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yesterday's Rant was inspired by my visit to one of the local Stihl dealers... this summer, after fixing a few chainsaws and other small two strokers, I'm finding that most of them have corrosion in the jets, rubber seals and bushings are deteriorating. Fuel lines crumbling... Even the paint is stripped from the bars before cutting much of anything. Basically, Stihl's homeowner MS series saws are tempermental when it comes to fuel and fuel oil mix. With Ethanol, they become boat anchors in a hurry if not treated to an after run oiling. I have one of these little bastards giving me fits right now..
. I may give it to David "familyvalues" Vitter for xmas at the rate it's going






At least they were able to give me a list of the local outlets selling ethanol free fuel. Pure-Gas.org, there are a couple others as well.



It may not do any good to write your legislator about anything specific ( like abuse of franking
) but I do write to tell them that I will not vote for them and am actively campaigning against them... their machines don't like that kind of "rattle"





YEP.... 75% to 50% of the energy for twice the price... and I thought "beer" was the answer...




I'm running for office on the "Take the Methanol out of Ethanol and just drink the crap", platform.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
422 Posts
Thanks for that link. Unfortunately there are only 9 places in CO to get it. 1 is 10 miles away from home at an airport, another is 18 miles away - but it's a family-owned wind-powered gas station http://tbgservicecompany.com/



But 40 miles for a tank of gas....idunno about that, lol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,517 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yesterday I took a couple 5 gallon jerry cans to the station for corn free fuel.... It was a 20mi round trip in the cage. Did other errands while in the "parish"




After mixing a batch of ethometho free 25:1 for the sthil, She started to pop on a couple pulls... about 30 pulls later she was running and spewing some nasty oil smoke... three minutes later, the saw seemed to clear out and began to run as intended... Still idles crappy, but Re-started hot and cold...




Dumped POS ethanol polluted old fuel

New Fuel line

Dissasemble and clean carb

replace fouled plug

replace air cleaner

Adjust coil PU clearance and clean

ran two stroke oil through motor with plug out using a starter motor for RC aircraft. (handy spinner for small engines)

replace worn out rope on pull start



Parts 28$ Labor 75$



A new Stihl MS250 cost about 300, this one cost another 100 and change to get running again....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
810 Posts
Been there several times from ethanol. I won't use the stuff in my small engines. Fortunate for me there are several stations in our town with non-oxy.

Do you fly RC planes Nova? I bet there are many good fields in your region! Lucky!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,601 Posts
If something isn't done we're going to see less and less (or far higher priced) small equipment being sold. 4 stroke engines are impractical for things like weedeaters and chain saws - matter of fact the extra weight could be a danger in itself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,517 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Been there several times from ethanol. I won't use the stuff in my small engines. Fortunate for me there are several stations in our town with non-oxy.

Do you fly RC planes Nova? I bet there are many good fields in your region! Lucky!!


Used to run RC boats and did some flying... I was better at landing the boats
RC Starter



I actually ended up flying electric gliders quite a bit... the starter and the propellor stayed connected




Lot's of good AMA flying fields here, although it's getting harder to keep them... same with the boat ponds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
810 Posts
We have one AMA field here and it is under constant attack from a neighboring little league and soccer field. Our flying field was in place for many years prior to these people building their ball fields. Sad. I don't fly there anymore as I don't like confrontation. These people actually drive over to the flying field when their kids are playing ball and yell at the people with airplanes saying their kids are distracted and you could crash and kill someone. Their second complaint is valid. I fly at a friends farm field and the lake near my house.







Marshall this 4-stroke is smaller than an average sized man fist and pumps out 1.6 hp! I think it would be possible to make 4-stroke engines for our chainsaws and other small applications. Like you said the biggest issue (I think) would be high cost.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,601 Posts
They've come down from the first OS 4 stroke I saw but they're still expensive and would be so on weedeaters and the likes. THen there's the weight and added complexity + they have to be made from superior parts to attain any decent RPMs. Another matter is the oiling - how do they get away with it?



A common 2-stroke can be thrown together with ease. One thing I liked about my dirt bikes and didn't like about 4 stroke bikes was that when you let off the throttle of a 2-stroke it doesn't drop revs like a rock and throw you over the handlebars. I would assume they've solved this in the newer dirt bikes, it's really hard to motocross without the built in free-wheling of the engine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
810 Posts
They've come down from the first OS 4 stroke I saw but they're still expensive and would be so on weedeaters and the likes. THen there's the weight and added complexity + they have to be made from superior parts to attain any decent RPMs. Another matter is the oiling - how do they get away with it?



A common 2-stroke can be thrown together with ease. One thing I liked about my dirt bikes and didn't like about 4 stroke bikes was that when you let off the throttle of a 2-stroke it doesn't drop revs like a rock and throw you over the handlebars. I would assume they've solved this in the newer dirt bikes, it's really hard to motocross without the built in free-wheling of the engine.




This particular OS engine gets lubricated from the fuel which has a high oil content. They don't have an ignition as they operate with a glow plug. That engine costs about $300. 3x what a comparible 2 stroke cost. But they sound so very nice! And give these beautiful little puffs of smoke on idle. CC to CC they have more torque and can turn a larger propeller than a 2 stroke.



I've never driven a 4 stroke motorcross bike. I can see how the throttle response would be a huge turn off. I am currently working on tuning a suzuki quad racer 250 I bought last year unseen from a cousin (dumb). The free wheeling revs are awesome! This thing is wicked fast. I had been excited to get my hands on a cheap 4 stroke four wheeler to do my yard work etc.. When I saw what it was I was dissappointed to say the least but had already given him the money I knew he needed badly. I figured I'd clean it up and fix the coolant leak and sell it. Anyone want to break your neck??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,601 Posts
I should just go looking it up but I'm considering going to a 4-stroke alternative on my what seems to be years left to finish plane. It's an off-scale replica of a Douglas A-26 Invader, wingspan 7' 8" and due to the size and design of the engine nacelles I should be able to fit the entire engine/muffler assemblies fully inside and still get adequate cooling.



It's designed for a pair of GOOD 0.40 two strokes, I was going to use the OS Max 46FX, bought one but by the time I got around to buying the second one they had replaced it with the 46AX so I've got an original FX if you know anyone that's interested.



Pretty much needs the 1.6 HP as a minimum since I'll need to turn 11 x 7 three-blade props. At least at one time I figured that would be enough to turn one. Not designed to be a racer but it's pretty light coming in under 8 lbs dry weight with no engines or equipment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
810 Posts
I should just go looking it up but I'm considering going to a 4-stroke alternative on my what seems to be years left to finish plane. It's an off-scale replica of a Douglas A-26 Invader, wingspan 7' 8" and due to the size and design of the engine nacelles I should be able to fit the entire engine/muffler assemblies fully inside and still get adequate cooling.



It's designed for a pair of GOOD 0.40 two strokes, I was going to use the OS Max 46FX, bought one but by the time I got around to buying the second one they had replaced it with the 46AX so I've got an original FX if you know anyone that's interested.



Pretty much needs the 1.6 HP as a minimum since I'll need to turn 11 x 7 three-blade props. At least at one time I figured that would be enough to turn one. Not designed to be a racer but it's pretty light coming in under 8 lbs dry weight with no engines or equipment.


That is a beautiful looking model! Wow! I think a couple of 50 sized 4 strokes would pull that plane beautifully with the prop you mentioned. It would be a first flight full of hugh anxiety though with the high cost of the motors. But I tell you it would sound realistic and would raise a lot of goose bumps! I'd love to see it.

How about going electric? I got my first electric with a outrunner motor last winter and they are great! The engine sounds like a turbine (really cool hum when diving and idling back). With the new LiPO batteries you wouldn't have to worry about adding weight either. No oily mess to clean up after flying.

I couldn't use your 46FX but know they are great engines and you would have no prob selling it on ebay or a local club I am sure and prolly for about what you paid for it. Would you send me a pic of your completed model? I'd love to see it.



Another reason E10 sucks for me.... I borrowed a old 18hp outboard to a relative last summer. GOt it back this summer. Took it out last month and it wouldn't start. Fooled around for a while and couldn't get gas to flow. Took it back home pulled the main needle and it was coated with white shit. Knew immediately was happened. Pulled the carb and the bowl had the same gooey crap in it. Took me a couple hours to clean it then had to order new packing washers for the needles and reshellac the floats.

Talked to my uncle who told me he had used plain gas at a good station (E10).. This stuff is nothing but trouble for me and my old outboards that only get used a couple times a year.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,601 Posts
Right now the plane is still a huge box of laser cut balsa and spruce with rolls and rolls of blueprints. I got started on the fuselage years back then had to move and didn't have anywhere I could work on it anymore. Now I'm in a place where I've got an extra room with a huge table in it so I'm thinking about dragging it back out again and having another go at it.



I originally bought just the plans, then some company called A&A Models put out a complete (almost) kit of precision laser cut parts so I bought that as there must be 1,000 pieces to it. All the plastic stuff is going to be difficult to hand fabricate as are my hopes of retrofitting retractable landing gear but I think it can be done.



You'll see these more often as the B-26 Bomber variant but they're essentially the same plane. We actually have a fully restored airworthy A-26 out at Wiley Post airport which is only a few miles from me, it will be kind of nice if I need to compare something.



http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Douglas_A-26_Invader.JPG
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
239 Posts
Good discussion. I have flown for just over 30 years and have primarily used four-stroke engines for the past 20 years. The power has increased considerably since I started with an old open rocker OS 20 FS. I am fortunate enough to be able blend my fuel...normally 18% Klotz castor blend or straight castor, 10% (by volume, not weight) nitromethane and the balance straight methanol. The castor protects the engines well from the ravages of the methanol, far better than straight synthetics. Lately I have been flying a few PAW diesels (my current favorite being the .033 cubic inch r/c model for front yard flying) which use (roughly) 25% castor, 40% kerosene and 35% ether. Very quiet, very powerful, easy to start (no glow plug as they are straight compression engines) but pretty messy with as much oil as they use. The smell - primarily from the burning ether - is something else to get used to. Just a thought if you need a real stump puller for that plane...a couple of diesels might do the trick.
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
Top