[TonyR]

Got the new parts.

installed the new cam chain, guide set, tensioner.

All the old looked good. No cracks. No really deep grooves. The chain was noticeably longer.



Anyways so I was putting it all back together. I had the rear cover back on it and the 8 mm (head size I think they are 6mm bolts) bolts in and snug but not tight. I stuck my finger in the started hole. Not sure why but wanted to move the gear. The gear slid to toward the rear cover on the pin. It moved about 1/4 inch. When it contacted the rear cover it sounded like the noise I have been taking this thing apart for.



I wanted to check with y'all about if your motor has any free play font and back in the starter gear.

My gear has both spacers on it. One in the front one in the back. I am not missing a spacer and they are not THAT wide anyway.



Thoughts?

Thanks!

Tony

 

[Shep]

The small starter gear will move freely one way,not the other.The starter flywheel is a,"Clutch" using the small roller/spring and pins inside the Starter Flywheel at and angle to allow one-way only operation.



Hope that helps?

 

[TonyR]

The small starter gear will move freely one way,not the other.The starter flywheel is a,"Clutch" using the small roller/spring and pins inside the Starter Flywheel at and angle to allow one-way only operation.



Hope that helps?

Hey Shep,

It turns fine but has a little free play back and forth along the pin it rides on. I was not concerned about rotational play. The gear body slides to the front of the engine and back of the engine.

The gear is not captured firmly between the block and the rear cover. There is about 1/4 inch of movement between the two pieces of metal.



If this is normal then OK. If it is not normal then I need a fatter spacer or something to keep it from moving.



I did not want to put it all back together again and still have the noise that started this adventure.

 

[Shep]

No and I've had this condition before.It was the Starter Flywheel not torquing far enough down on the Crankshaft.A very bad situation.



Cure:

Remove Starter flywheel.Polish tapered crankshaft end with some 500 wet and dry.Oil shaft and Refit Flywheel and check it torques to at least 70 Ftlbs of the Max 72 Ftlbs allowed.

Failure to do this cost me a Stator as it rubbed against the rear of the engine as it went tight.Luckily I had spare 2nd hand stators.

 

[barnym17]

Check to make sure the correct thrust washers are present on the starter idler gear.One on each side of the gear.

 

[Reg in Bristol]

Yep I agree, that toothed wheel is held pretty snugly between the block

and rear cover

If the rear cover is snugged up to the engine case with a normal gasket then

a quarter of an inch of axial movement along that shaft is serious !!



Good on yer for checking, you have saved yourself some heartache later



To give an indication of play

I once tried to omit the rear cover gastket and just use sealant

and that was enough to pinch that starter gear tight.

 

[TonyR]

Glad I asked! I am so sick of this project (fells like the never ending engine out) that I almost said screw it!



Reg I figured it would be pretty tight less than a mm of free play I expected.



Barn Yep two little spacers one on each side. If they were still available I would have bought new but I just have to use what was there. I wonder if the last mechanic put the wrong ones in there. These are mighty thin and little.



Shep,

I will look at it tonight when I get home. I will pull the flywheel and recheck. Thanks!



Hopefully this time when I put it all back together it will not be making a banging noise inside the engine.

 

[Shep]

Tony you have no idea of the frustrations I and many others have been through but it's only because of other people's neglect.There may well be a time when you will long for something to need fixing on it.



Click here,



http://cx500forum.com/index.php?/topic/6588-cx650-custom-water-pump-seal-time/

 

[Reg in Bristol]

Hang on !!!!



Its been so long since I had all the motors here and was doing all that

tinkering so will pull my starter to see what I get



Thinking about it

It may have been the gear change I pinched when i omitted the gasket





BRB

 

[Reg in Bristol]

Nope

just whipped off the starter motor and stuck my finger in the hole

and tried to push/pull the toothed gear wheel along its shaft

and it hardly moves at all

A millimetre if that



HTH



while I'm rantin on

the toothed wheel will push downwards ( anti clockwise)

easily but stop when pushed upwards ( clockwise)

 

[CXPHREAK]

Gearchange, starter, I've seen both referred to on the various forums under these circumstances.

 

[TonyR]

Nope

just whipped off the starter motor and stuck my finger in the hole

and tried to push/pull the toothed gear wheel along its shaft

and it hardly moves at all

A millimetre if that



HTH



while I'm rantin on

the toothed wheel will push downwards ( anti clockwise)

easily but stop when pushed upwards ( clockwise)

Reg,

Thanks for the sanity check!

I will go home tonight and pull that flywheel to see what I can find.

 

[TonyR]

Ok I pulled the flywheel polished with 0000 steel wool. I do not know where to find any 500 grit.

A little sweat equity and the tapered end is as smooth as glass. It was pretty smooth already but I think it is better. I did the inside of the flywheel also. I cleaned them both out with wd-40 and paper towels.

I also ran a razor through the threads of the main flywheel bolt. They were gummed up pretty well.



Looks good.

I reassembled and torqued it to 71 ft lbs on my torque wrench (used a cheater pipe wow!) and still have that much free play on on the starter gear with the rear cover off.

Heres pictures:



Gear to the back:







Gear to the front:





The starter gear with parts layed out:





Starter gear as set up ready to install you can see the two spacers:





In the first one you can see the space behind the flywheel.

Anyone got any thoughts?

Should I put the rear cover back on and see how it behaves?

 

[Shep]

According to those pictures there's still something wrong.The two Gears should have next to no gap and the smaller teeth on the Starter smaller pinion gear should mesh evenly and match to the larger gear.That still looks to me like the Flywheel clutch is not going down on the Crank shaft properly.



Are you sure all the parts are there?



Check on here,



http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cx500a-1980england_model16465/partslist/E15.html



This is very hard to diagnose unless,"Hands On".Do you know any other owners close by who may be able to help?



If you look at this picture you can see how close they are supposed to be,

 

[TonyR]

According to those pictures there's still something wrong.The two Gears should have next to no gap and the smaller teeth on the Starter smaller pinion gear should mesh evenly and match to the larger gear.That still looks to me like the Flywheel clutch is not going down on the Crank shaft properly.



Are you sure all the parts are there?



Check on here,



http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cx500a-1980england_model16465/partslist/E15.html



This is very hard to diagnose unless,"Hands On".Do you know any other owners close by who may be able to help?



If you look at this picture you can see how close they are supposed to be,

From that angle mine look pretty close.

Either way I think your right I need an experienced CX guy. I BELIEVE DaveF is about 45 minutes away. I will PM him and see when he can look at it. He offered to help with something else before so hopefully he will be able to help with this.

I do not mind doing the work, I find it annoying when it goes horribly off track.



Thanks for all the help this bike has been educational.

I have come to the opinion that it will run...damn it!

 

[Allan]

The washers or spacers do look pretty thin,,I have not had mine apart for a couple years now but I thought they were a bit thicker than the ones you have pictured. Maybe someone who has a motor apart could chime in to see if they think they are the correct thickness.



I am not sure how much slack there is in your gear or if the washers would make that much of a difference if they were too thin.

 

[TonyR]

The washers or spacers do look pretty thin,,I have not had mine apart for a couple years now but I thought they were a bit thicker than the ones you have pictured. Maybe someone who has a motor apart could chime in to see if they think they are the correct thickness.



I am not sure how much slack there is in your gear or if the washers would make that much of a difference if they were too thin.

Yeah I thought about putting bigger washers in there.

I saw on the old forum somewhere that the washers are nominal 1 mm thick which is pretty darned thin.

I have about 1/4 inch of free play (more or less) I would guess without having measured it.

I do not think they are 1mm thick but I am not sure where to source new ones.



I will call fastenall and see what they have to say for themselves...

 

[Shep]

In those pictures above this one looks right,

So how was that fitted?

 

[TonyR]

In those pictures above this one looks right,

So how was that fitted?

This image was taken with the starter gear on the pin and pushed as far back as it will go.

The other picture is to show that it will slide forward about 1/4 inch until it contacts the back of the flywheel.

The thing is when the rear cover is on I do not think the rear cover is capturing the gear and holding it in place relative to the flywheel.

I found that Ace hardware has machine bushings that are 1/2 inch ID 7/8 inch OD and .064 inch thick (14 gauge).

On the old forum I found a guy who says the washers are supposed to be 1 mm (0.039 inch thick (18 gauge)). I do not believe these are that thick.

If they are not I might go to Ace and buy a thicker washer to put on the front and see how it does.

 

[Shep]

There's still something not right about this.I have spare engine in my garage.I will take the rear case off tomorrow and take a couple of photos.I've never had to change/use anything but the stock Thrust washers on any of my engines and they are very thin.My digital calliper has crapped out so I cannot measure them.