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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know this is not turbo related, but it is sort of. I am selling my 500T.

A guy called me and e-mailed me, said he is very interested. He wanted to send me a deposit with an "electronic check".

I have never dealt with this. He said his shipper will bring me the balance via cashiers check when he picks it up. That sounded OK, since I'm sure his seller wants to check out the bike and let him know it's OK and legit on my end.

He did not ask for my bank account numbers etc. but just wanted to mail it to me to hold the bike.

He seems like a straight up guy, and is a very popular socialite in San Diego (I checked his name on Google!!)

Does a deposit with an electronic check sound legit? Is there anyway he could send it me, and then get my account number to

scam me, or is it safe? Most websites say merchants accept e-checks all the time, but I wasn't sure about one being sent to me

as a private party seller, and not as a merchant. Any thoughts on this?

Yes, I can hear it now: "homer you should know better, put it in the general information forum, and not the turbo forum"..........just figured I would ask you guys first, since we buy and sell these bikes regularly and for good sums of money from all over the map...
 

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The guy could not do any type of electronic deposit to you personally unless he did have your bank information. DON"T DO IT. Unless the buyer wanted to deal with something like PayPal, at least that way you have a third party system of proven accounts.



I'm glad your "spidey sense" felt something.
 

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I have had this same experience with buyers of whatever you may be selling.

This is a probably a scam. One guy wanted to send me a cashier's check for

an amount much larger that the actual purchase price of the item if I would

pay his shipper cash for the shippers services. The shipper would bring me

the check and I would pay him cash for the shipping, the shipping was more

that the price of the item, and I would be left with a worthless cashier's check.

I think he will need your bank account number and the routing number to send e-money.

Never give that info to a stranger. If he is serious, he can use Western Union for

the money transfer and you will be safe from the scam if he is a scammer. He could also

have his shipper bring cash.



The e-mail I received started, I am very interested in the item you have for sale and I will take the item at your asking price, he did not name the item, then he proceeded to detail how the transaction would take place.

The item I was selling was a horse. Also, the person sending the message was not fluent in the English language and misused and misspelled some words. These people operate offshore and in foreign countries and use local couriers to do the dirty work. These scammers are very wealthy and popular in their home countries as they are very generous with their stolen money.
 

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I just had three checks forged on my business account. Someone got ahold of a legit check and forged new ones with my signature done perfectly. They cashed them at my bank and used a driver's license, gave a finger print, and were also on video. The bank tied up my money for about two weeks while it was being investiagated. No, they still have not been caught....



Point is that people will pull off about any scam you can think of. Years ago I did not hesitate to accept or use cashier's checks. My favorite sales technique was when I was going to buy something I would take a cashier's check with the person's name on it and make it for 10 to 20% lower. I usually had some 100's in my pocket too, but looking at that cashier's check was always tempting, especially if the wife saw it. Today it is just darn tough to pay or get paid. I prefer cash, but on big ticket items I want a bank wire, or want to go to their bank and see them give me a cashier's check. The only problem I see is that they can still cancel about any kind of transfer and then your bank reverses it out of your account. It is tempting to just use one account for transactions, but even then they will usually put a hold on the money.



With the scenario you described I can see two or three ways you could be had. Pay Pal just might be the safest way out there right now. I have heard of issues there too, but it seems like they may have the legal strength and incentive to make it right. Good luck and be careful.



Ed
 

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Homer,



One other idea would be for you to offer to take the bike and title to a dealer. Let them hold the bike until the funds clear and then they could release it to the shipper. This is a simple escrow situation and if you have a friendly shop, they should do it pretty cheap. I always thought ebay should operate like this too.
 

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I know this is not turbo related, but it is sort of. I am selling my 500T.

A guy called me and e-mailed me, said he is very interested. He wanted to send me a deposit with an "electronic check".

I have never dealt with this. He said his shipper will bring me the balance via cashiers check when he picks it up. That sounded OK, since I'm sure his seller wants to check out the bike and let him know it's OK and legit on my end.

He did not ask for my bank account numbers etc. but just wanted to mail it to me to hold the bike.

He seems like a straight up guy, and is a very popular socialite in San Diego (I checked his name on Google!!)

Does a deposit with an electronic check sound legit? Is there anyway he could send it me, and then get my account number to

scam me, or is it safe? Most websites say merchants accept e-checks all the time, but I wasn't sure about one being sent to me

as a private party seller, and not as a merchant. Any thoughts on this?

Yes, I can hear it now: "homer you should know better, put it in the general information forum, and not the turbo forum"..........just figured I would ask you guys first, since we buy and sell these bikes regularly and for good sums of money from all over the map...




NO WAY, would I sell a bike and accept payment under the terms that the buyer is suggesting. IF he is truly interested he can pay with CASH or WIRE THE MONEY INTO YOUR BANK ACCOUNT.

If he wants to examine the bike and hold it with a deposit he can wire the funds to your account.

When he comes to pick the bike up he can bring CASH to pay the balance. NO CASHIERS CHECK ON PICKUP, NONE, NADA.

CASH ON PICKUP.



Big deal he is a socialite in San Diego. If he is he can certainly get his hands on $5,000 CASH very easily (I picked $5k as that is probably the maximum a CX500 turbo sells for these days).



As for wiring the buyer WOULD need your bank account info which is no big deal. All your bank account info is on every single check that you hand out every day. The buyer can't do anything or harm you just by having your account information.



I have wired money several times, you need your bank name, address account number, your FULL name that is on the account and and routing number. Your bank can confirm all that information for you.
 

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The guy could not do any type of electronic deposit to you personally unless he did have your bank information. DON"T DO IT. Unless the buyer wanted to deal with something like PayPal, at least that way you have a third party system of proven accounts.



I'm glad your "spidey sense" felt something.




NEVER EVER EVER accept Paypal as payment for a large purchase.

NEVER.

EVER.

PAYPAL stinks and offers virtually no protection for the seller.

I know several people that no longer accept paypal for payment as they have been ripped off and paypal does NOTHING.



Think I am kidding?



www.paypalsucks.com



As far as having bank information to wire funds into the account there is no danger, the same information a person needs in order to wire funds into your account is the same information that is printed on every single check you use to pay for groceries.
 

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I just had three checks forged on my business account. Someone got ahold of a legit check and forged new ones with my signature done perfectly. They cashed them at my bank and used a driver's license, gave a finger print, and were also on video. The bank tied up my money for about two weeks while it was being investiagated. No, they still have not been caught....



Point is that people will pull off about any scam you can think of. Years ago I did not hesitate to accept or use cashier's checks. My favorite sales technique was when I was going to buy something I would take a cashier's check with the person's name on it and make it for 10 to 20% lower. I usually had some 100's in my pocket too, but looking at that cashier's check was always tempting, especially if the wife saw it. Today it is just darn tough to pay or get paid. I prefer cash, but on big ticket items I want a bank wire, or want to go to their bank and see them give me a cashier's check. The only problem I see is that they can still cancel about any kind of transfer and then your bank reverses it out of your account. It is tempting to just use one account for transactions, but even then they will usually put a hold on the money.



With the scenario you described I can see two or three ways you could be had. Pay Pal just might be the safest way out there right now. I have heard of issues there too, but it seems like they may have the legal strength and incentive to make it right. Good luck and be careful.



Ed




Ed:



Not to give you a hard time. Frankly paypal gives a seller virtually NO protection.

NONE

Ask any ebay seller how many times they have been burned by paypal with a buyer making a false claim. Paypal sides with buyers virtually 100% of the time.

www.paypalsucks.com

In addition if you sell with paypal they take their percentage, the ONLY exception is if the buyer sends funds and lists it as a "gift", paypal then does not protect the buyer and they do not take a percentage.

Paypal may have a legal team but they will do NOTHING to help you if you get burned and they do little to NOTHING to "make things right" other than give BUYERS their money back and you as a seller have little recourse.



Wiring Funds IS very safe, a wire transfer can only be reversed on the same day it is sent. Once it is sent and the second business day goes by the buyer cannot get the money back, the wire cannot be reversed (according to my bank).

If a seller wants to be extremely cautious, he could have the funds wired in and then transfer the funds to another account OR go to the bank and take the money out immediately.



For this seller, I would suggest the safest way would be to have the buyer wire funds for a deposit, when he comes to pick the bike up the buyer brings CASH. GREEN CASH.
 

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Ed:



Not to give you a hard time. Frankly paypal gives a seller virtually NO protection.

NONE

Ask any ebay seller how many times they have been burned by paypal with a buyer making a false claim. Paypal sides with buyers virtually 100% of the time.

www.paypalsucks.com

In addition if you sell with paypal they take their percentage, the ONLY exception is if the buyer sends funds and lists it as a "gift", paypal then does not protect the buyer and they do not take a percentage.

Paypal may have a legal team but they will do NOTHING to help you if you get burned and they do little to NOTHING to "make things right" other than give BUYERS their money back and you as a seller have little recourse.



Wiring Funds IS very safe, a wire transfer can only be reversed on the same day it is sent. Once it is sent and the second business day goes by the buyer cannot get the money back, the wire cannot be reversed (according to my bank).

If a seller wants to be extremely cautious, he could have the funds wired in and then transfer the funds to another account OR go to the bank and take the money out immediately.



For this seller, I would suggest the safest way would be to have the buyer wire funds for a deposit, when he comes to pick the bike up the buyer brings CASH. GREEN CASH.
I have not had any bad experiences with Pay Pal, but I am not doubting that there are problems out there. All of my experience has been with paying for items and I have been lucky so far.



As far as bank wires, transfers, cashiers checks, etc., I was in the securities business for twenty years and I heard every excuse and every problem possible. I can't tell you how many times I asked a bank "how can this happen". Pulling the cash out after a transfer is a good idea except for two things, 1 - there is usually a time limit they hold funds and 2 - if you are a good customer and do all your banking there, the bank will still reverse it on you if something messes up.



One time when I was buying a bike in Canada we were trying to figure it out and he mentioned he had an account at Bank of America, so I just went to my local branch and deposited the money and the shipper sent it once funds were approved. Bottom line to all this is cash is king, just make sure it didn't just come off a printer. If it is over five thousand dollars be ready for a hassle, even on a deposit. I would suggest putting money in your bank in $2500 increments just to keep them from getting goofy. Pulling it out is even worse. Good thing most of us have cheap bikes!



Thanks for the tip on Pay Pal, that will make me more cautious if I am ever buying.



Ed
 

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Kool, while I appreciate your comments, the doomsday approach you have is a bit over the top. In regards to what the OP posted, he would be at risk giving his bank account information directly to an unknown person in lieu of some very solid background. Whether you like paypal or not, it is far better to use as a third party transaction than none at all. In this case, it was pretty clear the "buyer" was in no way willing to come to the "seller" with hard cash. Choosing to deal with a delivery service to manage the funds? Hell no.



Sure, writing a check gives out the information, but at least you know WHERE and WHO it is going to. Sure, people can cheat you and steal it, and have a hay day. Sure, cash is king. But you didn't take out your mortgage with cash did you?



Conspiracy theories are just that. Theories. Millions of people use PP daily, with likely a heck of a lot more happiness than the nay-sayers you cite. Any system has flaws. That's why Sellers AND buyers beware is the best practice.



The OP wanted opinions, and the deal he told of is NOT a safe practice. Period.
 

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I have not had any bad experiences with Pay Pal, but I am not doubting that there are problems out there. All of my experience has been with paying for items and I have been lucky so far.



As far as bank wires, transfers, cashiers checks, etc., I was in the securities business for twenty years and I heard every excuse and every problem possible. I can't tell you how many times I asked a bank "how can this happen". Pulling the cash out after a transfer is a good idea except for two things, 1 - there is usually a time limit they hold funds and 2 - if you are a good customer and do all your banking there, the bank will still reverse it on you if something messes up.



One time when I was buying a bike in Canada we were trying to figure it out and he mentioned he had an account at Bank of America, so I just went to my local branch and deposited the money and the shipper sent it once funds were approved. Bottom line to all this is cash is king, just make sure it didn't just come off a printer. If it is over five thousand dollars be ready for a hassle, even on a deposit. I would suggest putting money in your bank in $2500 increments just to keep them from getting goofy. Pulling it out is even worse. Good thing most of us have cheap bikes!



Thanks for the tip on Pay Pal, that will make me more cautious if I am ever buying.



Ed




Ed:



With paypal a SELLER is by far at greater risk for being burned than a buyer.



I think in all terms the most important factor is trust and communication.

Does the buyer and seller have phone numbers and addresses that they exchange once they get past the tire kicking stage?

Are the email addresses from something other than free services? Can you call the person and speak to them and do they give direct answers to all questions?

Can the seller provide pictures upon request?

Is the seller friendly or does every request for picture or additional info come across as a burden?



Heck go to www.spokeo.com (if the seller or buyer is in the USA) and there is plenty of info there, www.pipl.com also is a research resource, twitter also.



Other bits of personal info from facebook or youtube can help put together a picture of the person you are dealing with.



Google maps is such a valuable asset, buyer and seller can use over head satellite views and street views to confirm the address given is not an empty lot or a Dairy Queen.



Use common sense. I have accepted personal checks from buyers after a buyer said "I can send you payment but can't pick the bike up for a month or so". I took the personal check deposited it and the buyer did not send a shipper for 5 weeks.



Watch for scams and buyers that start to demand short delivery times unless CASH is involved.



Is the buyer or seller being reasonable?



All these factors go into creating a transaction that is safe for both parties both parties are satisfied.



VERIFY but do not always trust, the world if FULL of scammers who prey upon many people's sense of wanting to be friendly and trust others just as they are trusted.
 

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Kool, while I appreciate your comments, the doomsday approach you have is a bit over the top. In regards to what the OP posted, he would be at risk giving his bank account information directly to an unknown person in lieu of some very solid background. Whether you like paypal or not, it is far better to use as a third party transaction than none at all. In this case, it was pretty clear the "buyer" was in no way willing to come to the "seller" with hard cash. Choosing to deal with a delivery service to manage the funds? Hell no.



Sure, writing a check gives out the information, but at least you know WHERE and WHO it is going to. Sure, people can cheat you and steal it, and have a hay day. Sure, cash is king. But you didn't take out your mortgage with cash did you?



Conspiracy theories are just that. Theories. Millions of people use PP daily, with likely a heck of a lot more happiness than the nay-sayers you cite. Any system has flaws. That's why Sellers AND buyers beware is the best practice.



The OP wanted opinions, and the deal he told of is NOT a safe practice. Period.




Not to beat a dead horse.



Paypal is FAR from safe. VERY FAR.



As a seller you have virtually zero protection against getting a charge back from paypal. Paypal is not a bank and is not regulated as such.



The first line of self defense is ANY transaction is to know who you are dealing with.



If buyer and seller can't develop a line of communication and firmly establish whom each was, is, and how to get a hold of each other it makes zero sense to take the transaction any further.



The OP, once contacted by the interested party got into negotiation established a price and delivery terms. After identity and means of contact was established and confirmed, giving wiring information for payment represents zero risk to the seller.



Any reasonable seller would not have a problem accepting either cash or wired funds to a bank account. Only a fool would turn down wired funds or cash and in lieu of those payment methods, accept paypal thinking somehow paypal is going to somehow be a safer or more secure method of payment.

Obviously, using a delivery service to handle cash represents a risk than any reasonable buyer including myself, would be unwilling to accept.



Only a fool would get an email from a buying party, not confirm buying ID prior to giving out bank information or even paypal information.



In regards to the OP, lets face it, if the buyer is truly a "San Diego socialite" they will be well versed and have bankers that can wire funds with one phone call. Sending an electronic check and then having a "certified check" presented at time of pickup smells of 100% fraud, which virtually every poster here has posted.
 

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I wouldn't use paypal for anything more than a few hundred dollars. As stated by koolstrike, they offer no protection for sellers. If anything all you'll do is open yourself up to more ways of being scammed.



I won't even link paypal to my main checking account. I opened a separate account and only keep a small amount in there. Sorry but thousands of complaints over years are not conspiracy theories.



If I'm selling something big, it'll be a transfer in person at a local bank or cash. And if it's cash that person will go with me to my bank to deposit the cash so they can confirm it's real money.



A friend of mine just bought an expensive Mustang off Craigslist last week. He and the seller both had accounts at the same bank. They both met at an agreed upon branch and they transferred his check into the sellers account on Saturday. He got the title and keys, she kept the car until the amount cleared on Monday. They both covered their asses and everything turned out fine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
In the word of Gomer Pyle: "Thank ya, thank ya, thank ya"......

It seems my question has ignited a storm of debate (sorry, didn't mean to pit you guys against each other). Thanks guys; my turbo brothers have been reliable and forthcoming as I expected. Good info for both myself and others who may be selling a large dollar item.

It is really too bad what the scammers have done to us, making us all cynical andsuspicious. Be that as it may, we must take precautions. I really like George's last example (IE: The buyer got the keys and tilte, and the seller held the car until funds cleared), That is a good idea.

Well, here is what I have done, since he does still want the bike.

I sent him an e-mail saying the E-check for the deposit is fine (I will take it to the bank it's drawn on and verify authenticity before shipper gets here). I also requested he draw his cashiers check from a well know local and national bank (Wells, B of A, Chase, Citi, etc), so that the shipper and I can go to the local branch and verify it is authentic. Until that point, there will be no signing of the title, nor loading of the bike. Once the bank states the cashiers check is genuine, I will then sign over the title, load the bike and say "thank you" via a cell phone call.

What do you think of that idea? Sound kind of failsafe.........let me know if you think differently......thanks again!!!
 

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In the word of Gomer Pyle: "Thank ya, thank ya, thank ya"......

It seems my question has ignited a storm of debate (sorry, didn't mean to pit you guys against each other). Thanks guys; my turbo brothers have been reliable and forthcoming as I expected. Good info for both myself and others who may be selling a large dollar item.

It is really too bad what the scammers have done to us, making us all cynical andsuspicious. Be that as it may, we must take precautions. I really like George's last example (IE: The buyer got the keys and tilte, and the seller held the car until funds cleared), That is a good idea.

Well, here is what I have done, since he does still want the bike.

I sent him an e-mail saying the E-check for the deposit is fine (I will take it to the bank it's drawn on and verify authenticity before shipper gets here). I also requested he draw his cashiers check from a well know local and national bank (Wells, B of A, Chase, Citi, etc), so that the shipper and I can go to the local branch and verify it is authentic. Until that point, there will be no signing of the title, nor loading of the bike. Once the bank states the cashiers check is genuine, I will then sign over the title, load the bike and say "thank you" via a cell phone call.

What do you think of that idea? Sound kind of failsafe.........let me know if you think differently......thanks again!!!
The only potential problem I see is that shippers run wierd schedules and won't be particularily thrilled at having to drive a rig around while verifying funds etc. Make sure that is clearly communicated to the shipper initially and when he calls for the pickup. Don't be surprised if he calls at noon on Saturday and says "here I am". As I said in an earlier post, I have seen all kinds of scams and was a recent forgery victim. As to getting us up in arms, no big deal. I was totally ignorant of these issues with Pay Pal, but I don't doubt what has been reported. Just for the record I bought my last 650T via Pay Pal and my American Express card. I was short money when the bike came up for sale, so AMEX and Pay Pal saved the day for me. I split the premium and we were all happy. I did not know about the gift feature that was mentioned earlier. I felt comfortable with the seller as he was a corrections officer in California and I was able to verify his position. I'm sure he had the means to verify me too.



Ed
 

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In the word of Gomer Pyle: "Thank ya, thank ya, thank ya"......

It seems my question has ignited a storm of debate (sorry, didn't mean to pit you guys against each other). Thanks guys; my turbo brothers have been reliable and forthcoming as I expected. Good info for both myself and others who may be selling a large dollar item.

It is really too bad what the scammers have done to us, making us all cynical andsuspicious. Be that as it may, we must take precautions. I really like George's last example (IE: The buyer got the keys and tilte, and the seller held the car until funds cleared), That is a good idea.

Well, here is what I have done, since he does still want the bike.

I sent him an e-mail saying the E-check for the deposit is fine (I will take it to the bank it's drawn on and verify authenticity before shipper gets here). I also requested he draw his cashiers check from a well know local and national bank (Wells, B of A, Chase, Citi, etc), so that the shipper and I can go to the local branch and verify it is authentic. Until that point, there will be no signing of the title, nor loading of the bike. Once the bank states the cashiers check is genuine, I will then sign over the title, load the bike and say "thank you" via a cell phone call.

What do you think of that idea? Sound kind of failsafe.........let me know if you think differently......thanks again!!!




IMO there is absolutely NO reason the buyer should be paying the balance when his shipper arrives UNLESS the shipper is a friend or relative of his and they are shipping this bike as a single bike and are there to specifically check the bike out and take it away for their friend or relative.



I have purchased and sold more than 6 bikes over the past 3 years. When a professional shipping company arrives to transport the bike they do not verify a thing other than "we are here to ship a motorcycle".



If the buyer thinks that the transport company is going to do some sort of examination or inspection of the motorcycle he is sadly mistaken. Transport companies transport, they do not inspect or check bikes out for potential buyers.



IMO if the buyer wants to buy the bike, he should have it paid in full PRIOR to the transport company coming to pick the bike up.



There has been some excellent debate here, it leads to all kinds of great info and experience being exchanged.
 

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A cashier check is not even safe. I was selling some tires and had a cashier check sent to me for an amount about $900.00 over the cost of the item I was selling. He wanted me to cash the check and send him a Western Union check for the overage. I was puzzled when I got the check as it was written on a hospital in Florida from a Bank in Florida. The check looked great and even had water marks. I was suspicious and called both the hospital (I did have a heart attack in Florida but it was a different hospital) and the bank and they knew nothing about the check. I could have deposited the check and got the money but when the check did not clear the bank would have taken the money out of my account but that would have taken a week or longer. The only satisfaction I got was that this guy paid $15.00 to overnight the check via Fedex.

If you want to read about these scams go to www.craigslist.com and you will get all the scam information that you would care to read.

I eventually sold the tires to another person on craigslist and we met at an agreed location with cash. I took my son with me as a backup. Billrod
 

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I had a friend in the navy selling a nice old car. He had some guy call and says he saw the pics and wanted it. The car was for sale for 12,000. He sent my friend a check for like 15,000. My friend deposited it. And told the bank that he though this was a scam. Make sure you check this check really good. 2 months passes and my friend is colleting interest on 15,000. Dollars. The buyer is arranging shipping and saying he needs the 2,000 difference back. My friend knows this is a scam and refuses. 4 months into it and my friend checks his account. The money is gone! Calls the bank and asks what is going on and they tell him it was a counterfeit check. Not a copy… a counterfeit. Routing #’s account # all fake. The FBI questioned my buddy and it was quite a thing to see go down. Our big question was the check cleared. That should have been his money at that point and the banks problem for clearing that check. That money was in the account for all that time. Thank god he didn’t spend it because when the bank realized what happened they reached right in sucked that money right out. What I am trying to tell you is you need to trust the person you are doing business with. You said you picked up the Santiago socialites name in a couple minutes on Google. Maybe this dude is sitting in a dirt floored hut in Nigeria and he did the same. Call the dude in Santiago and make sure it is him. This is way too risky. Just list it in the newspaper or something and it will sell. You need to look in the persons eyeballs as you take his cash. Nobody buys stuff sight unseen like that.
 

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Everyone used a lot of words here to state the obvious. It's a scam. Socialites do not buy 30 year old motorcycle without seeing them if they buy them at all. Nobody does business the way you outlined it. A bank transfer is the safest method. PayPal, the ONLY problem here is a hacked account being used for payment, CALL the 800 PayPal number BEFORE counting your chickens.



It's an absolute shame and there's no excuse for how backwards and outdated our banking system is here in the US. It's pathetic, absolutely pathetic when compared to many other countries. In most "third world" countries, funds availability is immediate, you can deposit into any bank from any other bank usually without a fee, and I could go on. Supermarkets make better use of computer technology than banks do.



Want to see the guy disappear faster than a fart at a fan factory? Tell him you have a friend who lives not too far from him, and will be there to accept the balance in cash when the shipper confirms loading.
 

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Got this today in response to my ad for of a scooter for sale. I have seen this almost word for word and it is a scam.



Thanks for getting back to me about this item and i can only make the transaction Via PayPal been a secure way and my agent will handle the title transfer and the pickup because i won't be available for the inspecting and picking up of this item due to my Tight schedule as i am a marine engineer and due to the nature of my work, phone calls making are restricted,so you can send me your PayPal email account so that i can send the payment at once and its easy to sign up for one just log on to www.paypal.com,i will be responsible for the pick up charges

Note: i'll also include the Shipping company's fee so kindly Get back to me with your PayPal email account so i can proceed with the payment asap..Thanks
 
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