Honda CX 500 Forum banner

Rad Relocation CX650 + raising the fairing

9K views 32 replies 9 participants last post by  Sidecar Bob 
#1 · (Edited)
Here is what My winter machine (AKA The Famous Eccles) looked like last fall. It is a CX650E with a bunch of CX & GL500 parts and the fairing from my '83 GoldWing. It seems like every year it becomes less like a CX650E and more like a GL650I.

Land vehicle Vehicle Motor vehicle Mode of transport Car
Land vehicle Vehicle Motor vehicle Car Mode of transport


One of the few negatives about driving a sidecar outfit when it is really cold out is the wind that blows between the sidecar & the bike and freezes my right leg. The same wind pushes the warm air from the rad across my left leg, roasting it when it is above freezing. I have been thinking about moving the rad for a few years and last fall I figured out the basics but didn't have time to do it. I also want to put on higher handlebars and raise the fairing a bit so that I can sit a bit more upright. I intend to combine these projects by welding sections of U-channel to the fairing bracket (cowl stay) to raise the fairing and adding supports for the radiator to it at the same time. If I have time I intend to put a deflector with a door in it behind the rad & fan so that the heat will be directed below my foot on warm days but across my legs on cold days.

While hosing the rad out I discovered that it has seen one too many winters and the fins have let go of the tubes in several places. I have a good rad to replace it with. This means that I can do whatever I want to the old rad with no consequences - if it doesn't work out I can still mount the new(er) one the way Honda intended. I started by cutting the upper mounting lugs from the old rad so that it will fit between the fairing bracket and the sidecar body.

I have mocked up where I want the rad to go with some square aluminum tubing and wood. Tomorrow I will measure up what I need and I will pick up some steel over the weekend.

Motor vehicle Vehicle Mode of transport Automotive tire Car
Motor vehicle Vehicle Auto part Engine Fender
 
See less See more
4
#2 ·
Hey Bob, have you ever considered relocating the driver to the sidecar. You could be toasty warm in there! But I guess that would involve a whole lot more work than relocating the rad. It might be too much of an adventure to drive from within the side car, but you would probably get some looks driving down the road!
 
#4 ·
Hey Bob, have you ever considered relocating the driver to the sidecar.
If I "relocated the driver to the sidecar" I might as well get a car




The topic has come up before, but never seriously. There are a bunch of good reasons why not to, including: 1) If I was sitting in the sidecar I wouldn't be able to see past the bike unless I removed the fairing and I would never be able to carry a passenger without at least some weather protection for them. I'm pretty sure that the sidecar seat does not meet the Transport Canada/DOT regulation for minimum operator seat height too. 2) As far as my insurance company is concerned, my bike is essentially stock other than having a touring fairing instead of the original small one and having a sidecar attached. I can only imagine what they would say if I modified it enough to drive from the sidecar and what it would do to my rate.
 
#3 ·
I remember you posting about doing this. Glad to see you've got a start on it! It does look a bit strange! Oh well, we'll get used to it!



I got a hair brain idea today! I was reading Randall's thread on his Dual-Sport build and he had posted a pic of a two part radiator.



Here's my thought. What about moving the radiator to the rear of the bike? The radiator would be two smaller ones that would be enclosed in something resembling rear hard bags. A fan in each would cool when not moving. They would be vented from the front. Besides, I really dislike where the radiator cap is located! Putting a cap just about under the frame is one thing. But having the fairing mount make it impossible to remove, PRICELESS!



This way a rider wouldn't get the blast of the radiator.
 
#5 ·
I remember you posting about doing this. Glad to see you've got a start on it! It does look a bit strange! Oh well, we'll get used to it!
It looks a bit strange now, but when the fairing is back on and I put the left lower on (have you seen my "Rubbermaid" lowers?) + a panel across the front from the rad to the lower (I won't need the right lower with the rad moved) for winter it should look more natural.



What about moving the radiator to the rear of the bike?
I briefly considered moving the rad to the back end but remember, this is the winter machine and it would be a shame to dump all of that heat behind the bike when it could keep me warmer in February.



I really dislike where the radiator cap is located! Putting a cap just about under the frame is one thing. But having the fairing mount make it impossible to remove, PRICELESS!
The whole time I had this sidecar on the GL500 and the first 4 years it was on the 650 I had the frame clamp for the upper front attachment point between the cylinder head and the carb (a less than optimal setup) because I didn't want to put the frame clamp for the upper front mounting point right above the rad cap. When I replaced the Velorex sidecar's original frame with one from a Ural last year I didn't have much choice but to attach it there, but when I thought about it I realized that the only times I had ever removed the rad cap on this machine I was going to remove the rad anyways so it really didn't matter. But even with the frame clamp almost touching the rad cap it rubbed against the inside of the gas tank's tunnel and I had to drain the tank, take it off and solder up the hole twice last winter. When I was trying to grind a little bit more off of the clamp the second time it occurred to me that if the rad cap wasn't in the way there would be lots of room for the clamp so I became determined to move the rad this year.



If you look carefully at the pic of what it looked like last winter, you will see the extension on the right side of the fairing.The front of the sidecar pushes a lot of air upward and the extension deflects most of the wind that causes away from my right arm & face. Even with the extension in place I will still be able to get at the rad cap much more easily.



BTW: You can also barely see the coolant reservoir - the white object next to the cylinder head. Its the original tank, mounted to the sidecar body on spacers instead of in its original location, buried behind the engine. It was much easier to see and fill there. When I replaced the ignition pulsers with the engine in the frame I was glad I had moved it. I will have to move it again because the rad will be where it was so I think I will see if I can find a more regularly shaped one at a car wrecker.
 
#6 ·
I got a couple of pieces of 2" wide by 1" deep U channel from a local fabricator. These will be the spacers to raise the fairing and the upper support for the rad will be attached to the right one. Or maybe both - I haven't decided yet.



A trip to Cycle Salvage yielded a rad from some variety of Shadow and a set of forks that will reduce the GoldWing's trail (a weekend project for later on). This rad is longer & narrower and mounts with lugs that are at right angles to the rad so it will be much easier to build to.



I am getting ready to take the cowl stay off so that I can clean it up enough for welding now. After I get it back on, put the fairing on (to line them up), tack weld the channels to the cowl stay and finalize & tack the rad supports I will post more pics.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I never even considered that. With the rad in its original location, if I keep my right knee tucked in behind the fairing lower it stays reasonably warm in the winter but I would like to be able to move around a bit more. My left leg roasting when it is warm out is a bigger problem. On days like today it would be more than uncomfortable.

Progress report:

The rad I got was made for use with a separate filler neck with a hose. I got out the torch & un-soldered the filler and the lower hose barb from the old rad and then went to the building supply to look for a plumbing part to join them. The part I got required a slight alteration on the lathe and now it is ready to solder to the filler. I will post pics when I put it together.

Here is what it looks like with the new rad and the fairing in place. What do you think - a bit less strange looking now?
Vehicle Motor vehicle Transport Automotive tire Motorcycle


The tacked together framework
Land vehicle Vehicle Auto part Motor vehicle Car
Motor vehicle Auto part Vehicle Engine Car


After I took the pics I removed the fairing again and tacked the framework together more securely. I also added a diagonal brace between where the rad hangs and the U-channel (the filler neck will bolt to this brace - it will be a bit awkward to get at with the fairing in place, but a lot easier than the original setup).

I changed the fairing attachment a bit. It originally had a metal plate with two 6mm bolts welded on inside each side of the fairing so that when you put it onto the cowl stay the bolts went through holes and nuts went on from below. I have always found this awkward so instead I have screwed 5/16" SS bolts (I went up a size because SS bolts are not as strong) up through the channel instead so that I will be able to put the nuts on (inside the fairing) from where I can see them. Because the flanges of the U-channel are tapered I brazed the heads of the bolts to the channels. I will replace the rusty original plates with new ones made from 1.25" flat steel.

Every year I go to the plant for one day of my vacation to "play in the machine shop" and today was that day. I brazed up all of the stuff I had tacked together with the MIG, modified the plumbing part and made a piece to protect where the tach cable used to go from the end of an old cable (I no longer need a tach cable since the new tach takes its signal from the ignition, but I couldn't get it out with the rad in place). Basically, I cut it the turned piece from the end of the cable of and dressed the end flat just past the recess that the cable sheath goes in and tapped the hole so that a 1/4" bolt will seal it.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Here are the pics of the rad with the fan attached and (other than paint & straightening up a few fins) ready to install and the rad neck I built up from parts of the old rad and the plumbing piece.
Technology Machine
Auto part Brass Metal Pipe


I took a closer look at the writing on the rad and realized that it said "'98 VL800" not VT something - this rad is from a Suzuki Intruder 800, not a Shadow. OK. Not important unless I ever need to replace it.

I figured out what rad hoses I think I need so I visited my friendly auto parts guy and we spent some time looking at hoses in the catalogue and he ordered me one that should fit from the rad outlet to the thermostat housing and another that we hope I will be able to cut the bends I need for the other hoses out of.

The next step will be cleaning up the cowl stay and painting it and then I won't be able to do any more until after I change the transmission.
 
#10 · (Edited)
The transmission is in, the engine is painted (Duplicolor Cast Coat Iron Engine Enamel) and back in the frame and all of the brackets & bits are made & painted so I have started installing the new rad again.

The modified cowl stay, painted & installed. I also replaced the single square tube strut from the engine mount to the right side of the sidecar subframe with one on each side made of angle and then figured out that I could bolt highway pegs to them.
Land vehicle Vehicle Motor vehicle Motorcycle Automotive tire


When I rolled it outside to take pics I realized that the forks hit the piece of angle I welded across the front of the cowl stay. This piece only goes all the way across to keep everything lined up so strength isn't really an issue so I got out the grinder and cut a couple of notches to clear them.
Vehicle Auto part Motor vehicle Engine Car
Vehicle Auto part Motor vehicle Car Engine


The modified cowl stay from the rear
Vehicle Motor vehicle Tire Bicycle wheel Automotive tire


I spent a bunch of time this week figuring out how to make the rad hoses work. I measured wrong and the upper hose I bought was too short. No problem - I'll just cut it and clamp in a piece of steel tubing. Next I messed around with the lower hose and the block heater and realized that there was no way the hose I bought would do what I wanted it to. It has the right bends for the hose from the bottom of the rad to the block heater but there was not enough left to reach to the engine's water pipe. Then I remembered that I had a couple of spare water pipes so I started playing around with one of them to run from the engine's pipe to the heater but that wouldn't quite work either. But it would work for the upper hose!!! Eureka!!!

Some years ago, when I first installed an inline block heater on my GL500, I cut the angled part off of the front end of its water pipe, leaving just enough of the pipe beyond the clamp that holds it to the engine to attach a hose (with the original rad there wasn't much room for the heater & 2 hoses). I spent a lot of time soldering a ring of copper wire to it for the rib that helps keep the hose form coming off. When we put Eccles together I re-used my original shortened pipe.

For the upper rad hose pipe, the end that originally went into the water pump housing will be connected to the thermostat housing by as short a piece of hose as possible so I cut one ring off of that end and cut the other end as close to the bend as possible. This time I brazed a split ring keyring to the end for the rib - much easier and maybe just a bit better. The arm will bolt to the right hand subframe strut for support.

I couldn't quite get any part of the hoses I have to reach from the block heater to the engine's pipe (changing to the original pipe would only make it hit the left subframe strut) so I brazed a keyring to the piece I cut off of the upper hose pipe. It will join the hose from the heater and a short piece of hose to reach the engine's pipe.
Auto part Pipe Font Motorcycle accessories Automotive super charger part


And no, that isn't black chrome. I painted them with Krylon black Appliance Epoxy (its not supposed to be used for anything hot or outdoors but I am experimenting with it on a few bits & pieces). It just looks like good gloss black paint but for some reason the combination of overcast outside and halogen shop lighting made it look like that in the picture.
 
#13 ·
I moved the fan switch to the top of the rad http://cx500forum.com/index.php?/to...ad/page__p__215619__fromsearch__1#entry215619



It has been working pretty well so far except that I probably should have bought a slightly smaller rad. After a typical 20 minute drive, speeds up to 100 Km/h, temp. around freezing the rad is nice & warm at the top but pretty cold at the bottom. Even after idling for an hour I could still put my hand on the bottom for a few seconds.



I had a few minor setbacks that kept me from spending the time to post the pics until about 2 weeks ago when the drive I had temporarily stored the pics on became inaccessible. The pics are probably recoverable, but I won't have them back for a while. I will try to take some more pics of the finished product tomorrow before I modify & install the lowers.
 
#14 ·
Hi Sidecar Bob,

as if you don't have enough to do, have you ever looked at gl1500 radiators/fans ? While reading through your project post I kept thinking "he should look into goldwing cooling system components. You could have split radiators, use the stock fans/shrouds or develop your own(you are incredibly talented with all you've done to your Eccles), maybe put deflector vents on them that would do the towards/away from you thing. Anyway good luck with your endeavors.

PS I'm envious of the sidecar thing. I'd love to build one of the gl's up for that, then take my dog to parades with me. But I'm not made of that kind of money. YET !
 
#15 ·
I don't drive cars and I am pretty frugal when I work on my bikes. I figure between the savings in fuel & insurance costs it is less expensive to own 2 sidecar outfits than it would be to have a car.



I didn't seriously look at any specific cooling system parts other than the original (see pics in 1st post). When I realized that the original rad would be difficult to fit into the space available I figured out what maximum size would fit and went to Cycle Salvage. I dug through their bin of assorted rads until I found one that would fit and was in decent shape. As I mentioned above I originally thought it was from a Shadow and I didn't realize it was from an Intruder until I tried to research its temp sender & fan switch.



The coldest I have been out in without my snowmobile pants was a bit below freezing. The wind blew both pant legs about the same and neither of my legs felt particularly cold (or warm) so I guess it isn't balanced too badly - without the lowers. I intend to put the left lower on pretty much as before but if possible I will modify the right one to close the space across the front of the engine, between the left one and the rad.
 
#17 ·
Can I suggest that instead of trying to move the radiator, you move the air?



The "nose" of the sidecar is rather blunt and symmetrical. What if it weren't so blunt or symmetrical?

A little "S" sort of curve, bike side protruding farther forward than the curb side.

Maybe just a little wedge, a wind deflector sort of like a "\" mounted in front of the sidecar?

Maybe it would split the wind enough so the heat on your legs would be even?
 
#18 ·
Dan:

Cool. I have sent that pic to my former kids (they are still mine but they haven't been kids for years) with the note "Wouldn't you guys have loved one of these when you were that age?"



Abecedarian:

I have tried air dams of various types over the years on several of my past outfits and I even built a body for one that was about 6" longer on the side nearest the bike but none of them ever made as much difference as moving the rad has. And that's only my impression before putting the lowers on.
 
#19 ·
Abecedarian:

I have tried air dams of various types over the years on several of my past outfits and I even built a body for one that was about 6" longer on the side nearest the bike but none of them ever made as much difference as moving the rad has. And that's only my impression before putting the lowers on.
It was just a thought I had. If you've tried it or something like it, and it didn't' work I've not much else to say other than good luck.
 
#21 ·
Cant wait for spring (and a semi functioning ankle with any luck) so I can head up and Visit Sidecar Bob and see his bikes, as its all wins for me, get to see some nice machines, get to meet a nice guy, get to ride the area I like best ..... Damn, hurry up spring, Im already sick of winter
 
#22 ·
Damn, hurry up spring, Im already sick of winter
Now, that's why I think everyone should have at least one sidecar outfit and a decent snowmobile suit
 
#23 · (Edited)
I took a few pics while I was modifying/installing the lowers the other day. They aren't as clear as the ones that are being (hopefully) recovered and they don't show the plumbing between the thermostat housing & the top of the rad but they are better than nothing.
Auto part Vehicle Engine Motor vehicle Fuel line
Auto part Motor vehicle Vehicle Car Engine
Auto part Motor vehicle Vehicle Wheel Tire


The object that the lower hose runs to (visible in the 2nd & 3rd pics) is the inline block heater. Mounting it there keeps it out of the way of the fender and supports the middle of the hose. The zip tie visible in the 3rd pic is there to make sure the hose doesn't move around and get closer to the header than it should. Believe it or not I brushed off as much dirt as I could before I started working. I would have liked to wash it but I don't do that when there is salt on the roads because it encourages rust.
 
#33 ·
I took a few pics while I was modifying/installing the lowers the other day. They aren't as clear as the ones that are being (hopefully) recovered and they don't show the plumbing between the thermostat housing & the top of the rad but they are better than nothing.
The original pics were not recoverable. While putting Eccles back together this time I took some better ones.

This shows the lower rad hose, connected to the pipe from the water pump and the inline block heater.
Motor vehicle Vehicle Auto part Engine Automotive tire


This is the modified water pipe that connects to the thermostat housing via a short hose (upper right) and the upper rad hose (you can see the clamp where it connects to the rad on the left, just above the horn wires and the other end of the hose near the middle, close to the sidecar strut).
Motor vehicle Auto part Vehicle Engine Automotive exterior


Another shot of the lower hose, this time showing where it connects to the rad.
Motor vehicle Tire Auto part Vehicle Automotive tire


This has been successful overall. I am still planning to change to a smaller rad; maybe next year....
 
#24 · (Edited)
This pic shows the more or less completed project. The rad is permanently mounted in its final location and has been working well for several weeks. I am not sure I like where the rad cap is. It is nice & easy to get to when you need to but that makes it easy for anyone else to get at too. Maybe I need a locking rad cap.
Land vehicle Vehicle Motor vehicle Automotive tire Car


These pics show the lowers:
The left side is the same "Rubbermaid lower" that I have been using for years except the hole for the highway peg. In order to be able to get my foot around the lower to the peg I had to bring it a bit closer to the engine at the bottom than it was before and now it dumps more cold air onto my knee than I would like. If I turned the edge of the lower out to deflect the wind it would become awkward to get my leg around it again so I will just add a small deflector at knee height.

The panels across the front of the engine were cut from an old truck mudflap.

I left the space between the lower & the panels in front of the engine so that air can flow past the header. If the air coming from the inside of the lower feels too cool when it becomes cold out I will close this area in.

I left the area around the rad open so that air can get to that header too but I may decide to close part of that off if I need to. So far the air temperature on the right isn't too bad but I wouldn't mind if the engine warmed up a bit more so I will have to put something in front of the rad to reduce the airflow.
Land vehicle Vehicle Motor vehicle Automotive tire Tire
Land vehicle Vehicle Tire Motor vehicle Automotive tire


All things considered I am pretty happy with this so far.
 
#25 ·
Thanks for taking the time to document this Bob. An interesting project and easy to follow with the clear commentary and good illustrative pics. The original thinking 'outside of the box' is a treat too. Don't let that go to your head though.
 
#26 ·
I made a solid panel with rows of 1" holes (more than 80% blockage) that I put in front of the original rad for a few weeks during the coldest part of the winter. I modified it and mounted it on the new rad and the engine still wasn't warming up completely. I slid something behind it that blocks all but 8 of the holes and the temp gauge still reads lower than it did with the original rad at similar temperatures & speeds.



I think I will have to look for a rad about half the size.....
 
#27 ·
I made a solid panel with rows of 1" holes (more than 80% blockage) that I put in front of the original rad for a few weeks during the coldest part of the winter. I modified it and mounted it on the new rad and the engine still wasn't warming up completely. I slid something behind it that blocks all but 8 of the holes and the temp gauge still reads lower than it did with the original rad at similar temperatures & speeds.



I think I will have to look for a rad about half the size.....


Isn't the thermostat suppose to keep the coolant from circulating through the radiator until it gets hot enough? That being said, if your thermostat is opening too soon, it's still sending coolant to be cooled by the radiator before it's hot enough. IMO, the size of the radiator shouldn't matter.
 
#28 ·
If the rad cooling is "too efficient" (or its really cold out) the rad can cool the fluid fast. While the thermostat will control the engine coolant temp, average engine temp will be a value based on the temp differential of the two temps, thermostat opening temp and rad coolant temp. During normal summer days, the temp difference between the two (coolant leaving and coolant coming back in) will be XX deg. In the winter, this XX value gets a lot larger, making the average temp lower than "normal". In a really hot summer day the value of XX gets smaller, making the "average" temp higher than "norm". (this is why the E-Fan works far better in slow moving traffic).



All the thermostat can really do is open less frequently as it takes the engine longer to get the coolant up to its opening temp. but since the cold fluid has to go through the engine (cooling it) before it again reaches the thermostat, there is a lag which effects the "average" temp generated.



About all you can do is try to keep the rad from cooling the fluid too far (making XX bigger), which is usually accomplished as you have done, by restricting airflow and thus reducing thermal radiation values.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Yeah. Like you said. Besides, would all those truckers spend money on radiator blankets if the rad didn't affect the minimum engine temp?



But the thermostat does have some effect. I used to run a "winter thermostat" with a slightly higher opening temperature in my first 'Wing so I know they are available. I have been contemplating putting one in Eccles, but at this point I think I will wait and see what it does when the temp is above +10c first. That should only be about 5 or 6 weeks away
and maybe I can do some experimenting before its time to put Mr.H back on the road.



Every discussion of Transverse twins cooling systems needs this pic

 

Attachments

#30 · (Edited)
It didn't warm up much more as the weather warmed up but this was a busy summer and with everything else going on I forgot to change to a winter thermostat when I put Eccles back together. Then I started to have trouble getting Eccles to start, needing maybe 10 seconds of cranking to get the left side to fire with the right side catching a few seconds later. It turned out to be fouled plugs. I usually check plugs for fouling with an ohm meter and in this case the left one read about 20 Megohms and the right one around 10. Sometimes you can clean up fouled plugs and get a bit more life out of them but these ones wouldn't clean so I tossed them and put in a couple of old ones and it fired up normally.

Then I got thinking. From the time I moved Eccles' rad the temp gauge has read low - not a good thing in a winter machine. Honda recommended one range hotter plug for the GL500 in cold weather but my 500 warmed up nicely and ran well so I never bothered and they didn't recommend a cold weather plug for the 650. But it was worth a try so instead of DPR8EA I bought DPR7ES. So far the temp gauge is actually reading in the normal range again.

Cool :cool: Or rather warm... Or... Well... You know what I mean...
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top