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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Still unsure if that Kawasaki Ninja 600 fan will fit as someone on here quite a while back said it would but CXOkie took it with him to see if he can decide.



The motor sticks out quite a ways from the back but the fan is small in diameter and may offset enough from the cam such that it will do so.



I do know if I an get it in there it will pass plenty of air, on 12V it may only draw 1.8A but it blows like a tornado and is pretty darn quiet doing so.



Regardless of that fan or another I'd far rather have a variable speed control on it such that it won't constantly be switching between none or all out.



What temperature would you want it to start up at, what temp would you want it going full force at and what temp would you ideally want it to regulate the water temperture to?



Kind of like start at 180* F, full at 210* but adjust to maintain a happy 195* (just an example, someone here knows the ideals)



Haven't quite figured out where to mount the temp sensor. I could glue it to the top of the radiator with thermally conductive epoxy but ideally it would go into the hole where the temp switch on the electric fan models existed or somewhere with flowing return (hot) water after the thermostat opens.



Does that hole even exist on the older bikes? I see that on a 1982 GL500 the fan switch was apparently right below the thermostat in that housing, at least what they call the "Sending Unit, Upper" is which makes me wonder if there was a lower one too?



If the hole does exist and is just plugged does anyone know what thread dia and pitch it is?



My guess is that hole isn't on the older bikes so it's a moot point, leaving me to ask where the best place to monitor the water temp would be - someplace I can put a tiny (about 1/4" or 1 cm) blob of glue and hide the wires leading from it.
 

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Still unsure if that Kawasaki Ninja 600 fan will fit as someone on here quite a while back said it would but CXOkie took it with him to see if he can decide.



The motor sticks out quite a ways from the back but the fan is small in diameter and may offset enough from the cam such that it will do so.



I do know if I an get it in there it will pass plenty of air, on 12V it may only draw 1.8A but it blows like a tornado and is pretty darn quiet doing so.



Regardless of that fan or another I'd far rather have a variable speed control on it such that it won't constantly be switching between none or all out.



What temperature would you want it to start up at, what temp would you want it going full force at and what temp would you ideally want it to regulate the water temperture to?



Kind of like start at 180* F, full at 210* but adjust to maintain a happy 195* (just an example, someone here knows the ideals)



Haven't quite figured out where to mount the temp sensor. I could glue it to the top of the radiator with thermally conductive epoxy but ideally it would go into the hole where the temp switch on the electric fan models existed or somewhere with flowing return (hot) water after the thermostat opens.



Does that hole even exist on the older bikes? I see that on a 1982 GL500 the fan switch was apparently right below the thermostat in that housing, at least what they call the "Sending Unit, Upper" is which makes me wonder if there was a lower one too?



If the hole does exist and is just plugged does anyone know what thread dia and pitch it is?



My guess is that hole isn't on the older bikes so it's a moot point, leaving me to ask where the best place to monitor the water temp would be - someplace I can put a tiny (about 1/4" or 1 cm) blob of glue and hide the wires leading from it.




Are you planning on PWM for the controller?



Personally, I'd go a simpler setup - OFF until 180F - 7v from 180F-200F, 12v @ 200F +
 

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On my Kawasaki the fan goes on only when I'm stopped. Normally the temperature regulation is done by the thermostat. I would use a simple (and reliable) on/off switch. They do have some hysteresis.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Was thinking PWM but at such low current a few lost watts isn't going to make much difference. It won't need any hysteresis since it would be continuously variable.



This circuit works just fine and could be used as is but for a few $$ more true PWM would come into play as would greater accuracy and adjustability.



http://www.innoengr.com/examples/fan_speed_controller2.jpg



With the MOSET I pulled out of my junkpile, a 10K thermistor and a 500 ohm trimpot set to around 370 ohms it coes on around 185* and is at full around 205* - by no means perfection but useable as it stands.



One drawback to this fan (and it exists to an extent in all electric motor operated devices) is that you have to hit around 6V before the motor starts to spin up, after that it's started it will run on less. PWM control would eliminate this. This is an older FET, the on resistance is around 0.06 ohms so at full speed it barely dissipates anything. WhenI settle on a fan I will eventually make a PWM controller for it just for the sake of less current draw during worst case (half on) conditions.

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My big questions are still unanswered: what would be the ideal temperature you'd want your radiator water to sit at and where's the best place to sense that temperature? Fairly quick response and capability to keep it hidden would be the priorities. If it wasn't such a hassle to get to I'd drill and tap into the thermostat housing but just had a thought - we've already got a variable resistance temp sensor that runs the temperature gauge, I could just use that signal.



This is the sensor I used, it could be glued or potted into/ont any situation:

http://www.mouser.com/Search/Produc...irtualkey64800000virtualkey81-NTSD0XH103EE1B0



Tiny and sealed in an epoxy coating.
 

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I think if I convert to an electric fan I would try Hayden's 3653 Adjustable fan thermostat control.



http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HDA-3653/



Depending on the fan used, I might also run the fan with a relay to keep the load out of the controller (I think the controller can handle 9 amps or so). It's cheap enough to try, and you can then adjust it to meet your needs. For the sensor bulb I would probaly make a well out of copper tubing and epoxy the well to a radiator tank, then insert the bulb in the well along with some heat conductive paste. A blob of rtv silicone would hold it all in the well.



I know some of the GoldWing guys are using this switch to replace the stock thermostatic switch, it should work for us too.



DCC controls does offer a variable speed fan control unit that would probably work too, but at $145 it is probably overkill for one little fan on a bike, I would try the Hayden switch first. If you are building your own speed control the DCC site does offer guidance on where to place the probe.

http://www.dccontrol.com/fancontrol.htm



You electronics guys are pretty cool. I don't think I could build a speed control, or at least build one that I could trust!
 

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I think if I convert to an electric fan I would try Hayden's 3653 Adjustable fan thermostat control.



http://www.summitrac...parts/HDA-3653/



Depending on the fan used, I might also run the fan with a relay to keep the load out of the controller (I think the controller can handle 9 amps or so). It's cheap enough to try, and you can then adjust it to meet your needs. For the sensor bulb I would probaly make a well out of copper tubing and epoxy the well to a radiator tank, then insert the bulb in the well along with some heat conductive paste. A blob of rtv silicone would hold it all in the well.



I know some of the GoldWing guys are using this switch to replace the stock thermostatic switch, it should work for us too.



DCC controls does offer a variable speed fan control unit that would probably work too, but at $145 it is probably overkill for one little fan on a bike, I would try the Hayden switch first. If you are building your own speed control the DCC site does offer guidance on where to place the probe.

http://www.dccontrol.../fancontrol.htm



You electronics guys are pretty cool. I don't think I could build a speed control, or at least build one that I could trust!


That hayden kit is designed to probe between the fins of the radiator... not really ideal.



The fastest most efficient temperature monitoring is going to be reading from the stock temp sensor area.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I have no problems with my N/O 75 Deg C Temp sensors,



http://globalcxglvtwins.hostingdelivered.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=209





however I toyed with the idea of making one of these but never needed it,





http://www.heatsink.info/content.php?content=control.shtml


75* C is actually a bit before the thermostat is supposed to open, isn't it?



That's pretty much the same variable speed circuit I made but it goes from nothing to full on way too quickly.



If I have an ideal value to shoot for (say around 190*F or 88*C) I'll just build a simple PWM controller to hold it right around there. If it starts getting hotter due to idling in traffic it will automatically speed the fan up, if it cools down sufficently from riding on a cool day it will slow down or stop the fan altogether. I'd just prefer to have it slowly adjust the speed rather than having it come on and off, on and off.
 

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75* C is actually a bit before the thermostat is supposed to open, isn't it?



That's pretty much the same variable speed circuit I made but it goes from nothing to full on way too quickly.



If I have an ideal value to shoot for (say around 190*F or 88*C) I'll just build a simple PWM controller to hold it right around there. If it starts getting hotter due to idling in traffic it will automatically speed the fan up, if it cools down sufficently from riding on a cool day it will slow down or stop the fan altogether. I'd just prefer to have it slowly adjust the speed rather than having it come on and off, on and off.


If you read my page and after quite a bit of testing the 75 Deg C works perfectly as it allows for the difference in temps between where it's mounted on the top of the Radiator and the actual engine working temperature thus cutting in an out as I wanted e.g it cuts in just before the temp gauge hits the middle and then cuts out just below the nominal mark.

Under normal air-cooling it hardly ever gets used even at sustained high speeds depending on the ambient temperatures of the day/s.



Both my CX have a nominal running temp at the cylinders of 85 Deg C +/- say 5% or less.



When making my system/s I used a thermal infra red/laser temp sensor gun to get accurate readings where required.



http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=46033
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
OK, I understand now due to the way your pickup sensor works.
 

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What are the advantages to haveing AN ELECTRIC FAN?


Faster engine warm-up.

Less load on the engine.

No chance of the fan grenading and taking the the radiator with it.

Possible Slight performance gain(Not Dyno tested so only supposition by feel).

Ease of engine front cover removal when sump and oil pump strainer require cleaning(Should be done by all 2nd hand buyers and then around every 3rd/4th oil change).

Less chance of the engine running hot or overheating in traffic.

Parts will never dry up.



HTH
 

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Faster engine warm-up.

Less load on the engine.

No chance of the fan grenading and taking the the radiator with it.

Possible Slight performance gain(Not Dyno tested so only supposition by feel).

Ease of engine front cover removal when sump and oil pump strainer require cleaning(Should be done by all 2nd hand buyers and then around every 3rd/4th oil change).

Less chance of the engine running hot or overheating in traffic.

Parts will never dry up.



HTH


  • The engine will not warm up any faster ... that is controlled by the thermostat.
  • Performance ... probably so slight you won't notice
  • Fan grenading is more likely if you are taking off the fan to take off the front cover all the time to do maintaince that is not required.
  • You don't need to clean the sump strainer if you use good oil.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Actually, in the time I've been on the forums (over a year now) I've heard of fans grenading for no reason other than they just wear out, plastic around the hub cracks and they eventually let loose in some case taking the radiator with them.



This would be the main reson I'd replace mine with an eledctirc but I can also use the advantage of it being able to run at full speed while sitting through long stop lights in the 101* F heat that isn't uncommon here.
 

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  • The engine will not warm up any faster ... that is controlled by the thermostat.
  • Performance ... probably so slight you won't notice
  • Fan grenading is more likely if you are taking off the fan to take off the front cover all the time to do maintaince that is not required.
  • You don't need to clean the sump strainer if you use good oil.




* The engine will not warm up any faster ... that is controlled by the thermostat.



The engine WILL warm up faster as there's no cooling by the mechanical fan to impede the engine warm up.



* Performance ... probably so slight you won't notice



I definitely notice it.



* Fan grenading is more likely if you are taking off the fan to take off the front cover all the time to do maintaince that is not required.



Not at all and much safer than removing a mechanical fan.



* You don't need to clean the sump strainer if you use good oil.



Not even if the engine has been running incorrectly for a long length of time or if the strainer has never been cleaned?
 

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I agree with not needing to clean the engine sump with a good oil. I had a Honda civic automobile that I ran Amsoil in. I was coming home from southern Illinois when I ran over a tire tread that punched a gash in my oil pan. I had to stay over night in a motel next to a service station that would work on the car the next day. I went over in the morning and the mechanic was in the process of removing the oil pan. He said he would scrape all the sludge out and clean it up and take it to the local implement dealer and have it hammered out and brazed. I told him there would be no sludge and he said he had never seen a oil pan that did not have sludge. He took out the last few bolts and was amazed that the inside of the pan was just stained a light brown color and there was no sludge. Then he had to look at the odometer to see that the vehicle had 75,000 miles. He now was suddenly interested in what kind of oil I was using. The last thing he said was "You have sold me." BillRod
 

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* The engine will not warm up any faster ... that is controlled by the thermostat.



The engine WILL warm up faster as there's no cooling by the mechanical fan to impede the engine warm up.



* Performance ... probably so slight you won't notice



I definitely notice it.



* Fan grenading is more likely if you are taking off the fan to take off the front cover all the time to do maintaince that is not required.



Not at all and much safer than removing a mechanical fan.



* You don't need to clean the sump strainer if you use good oil.



Not even if the engine has been running incorrectly for a long length of time or if the strainer has never been cleaned?


Shep,



The coolant just goes around and around inside the engine until the thermostat opens up, if it is working properly. The little bit of air flow over the engine makes no difference.



When you pulled your fan how many other changes did you make at the same time?



I was talking about the mechanical fan removal being much more likely to crack if you repeatedly take it off. You need to take the mechanical fan off to get at the oil pump.



I don't know what kind of crap oil they are selling over in England, but the sumps don't get nor stay dirty here if you change the oil regularly.
 

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I agree with not needing to clean the engine sump with a good oil. I had a Honda civic automobile that I ran Amsoil in. I was coming home from southern Illinois when I ran over a tire tread that punched a gash in my oil pan. I had to stay over night in a motel next to a service station that would work on the car the next day. I went over in the morning and the mechanic was in the process of removing the oil pan. He said he would scrape all the sludge out and clean it up and take it to the local implement dealer and have it hammered out and brazed. I told him there would be no sludge and he said he had never seen a oil pan that did not have sludge. He took out the last few bolts and was amazed that the inside of the pan was just stained a light brown color and there was no sludge. Then he had to look at the odometer to see that the vehicle had 75,000 miles. He now was suddenly interested in what kind of oil I was using. The last thing he said was "You have sold me." BillRod


You want squeaky clean internals, try using Redline Engine Oil - it's the only Group V ester based oil you can buy off the shelf
Amsoil is a Group IV PAO based oil, as WAS (NO LONGER!) Mobil 1 synthetic.



Germal Castrol 0w30 Syntec is a Group IV, as are Royal Purple oils, and a few other 'boutique' oil brands.



I use GC 0w30 in every car I own, as I can walk into any Autozone and pick it up off the shelf!



The 0w30 is the ONLY Castrol Syntec that is actually a Group IV PAO based oil, though. The others are hydrocracked Group III, such as Pennzoil Platinum, Mobil 1, and Quaker State Synthetic. If you want a good Group III oil for a good price, Walmart's Supertech Synthetic is just as good as the other Group IIIs, without the extra price.



Redline oil is the best oil you can easily buy. I get mine from Summitracing.com by the case
 

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Shep,



The coolant just goes around and around inside the engine until the thermostat opens up, if it is working properly. The little bit of air flow over the engine makes no difference.



When you pulled your fan how many other changes did you make at the same time?



I was talking about the mechanical fan removal being much more likely to crack if you repeatedly take it off. You need to take the mechanical fan off to get at the oil pump.



I don't know what kind of crap oil they are selling over in England, but the sumps don't get nor stay dirty here if you change the oil regularly.


I made no other changes to the engine at that time.

On an historical note all Automotive engine makers both two wheeled and four wheeled discarded the inefficient and energy consuming mechanical fan systems over 25 years ago including Honda.I'll stick with my more efficient electric fan system.Why not convert yours and if you don't see any benefits you can just convert back
 

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Faster engine warm-up.

Less load on the engine.

No chance of the fan grenading and taking the the radiator with it.

Possible Slight performance gain(Not Dyno tested so only supposition by feel).

Ease of engine front cover removal when sump and oil pump strainer require cleaning(Should be done by all 2nd hand buyers and then around every 3rd/4th oil change).

Less chance of the engine running hot or overheating in traffic.

Parts will never dry up.



HTH


I installed an electric fan on my GL, and can attest to it being a worthy upgrade. I did mine last winter, and definitely saw some improvements - warm-up time was decreased slightly, but most noticeable was the crisper, more lively power from the engine. The electric fan also cools very very well - when the thermostat clicks on, loads of hot air can be felt blasting out from behind the radiator, and with a lot more force than the slow-turning mechanical fan could muster.
 
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