I Need HEAT

Randall-in-Mpls said:

Before I go the torch route, I'll try working it cold.

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Well, I made the attempt yesterday, and I only succeeded at scratching the paint.



Now, I'm thinking about sourcing another frame. Jwnovaman offered one back in the spring. Even if it's still available, shipping will likely be a deal-buster. I'll get the swingarm off and weight the frame to calculate the actual cost.



Before finding a replacement, I really should resolve the rear suspension question. Extended shocks for a CX frame would probably be cheaper and easier to source than the appropriate mono-shock.



If I can rent a torch kit, maybe "I'll give it a shot that way before I abandon the frame I have. If that doesn't work, I'll use it for experimenting before it gets recycled.



R



P.S. My 1-1/2 year old is sitting on my lap. She points at my Red Stig avatar and says "Dada!"

WayneDW said:

Wisconsin is a perfect storm for deer populations. The whole state is excellent deer habitat. The state has the largest herd of whitetails in the nation and every year hunters shoot the highest number of deer.

Of course, this is why most of us are scared to ride there after the sun goes down...

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Here you have to apply for an antlerless tag and only so many are allotted,,if your name is not drawn you can only get a license to shoot a buck.

Not many people around here ride at night for the same reason,,About 15 years ago I hit 2 deer one night about 20 minutes apart in my car.

Randall-in-Mpls said:

Well, I made the attempt yesterday, and I only succeeded at scratching the paint.

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Know any firemen? One of the "jaws of life" rigs they use would bend that rail like it was made of play dough.

Allan,

In many areas of some states you apply for a permit by some magical date in august I think. If the area you apply for only offers a few thousand antler-less permits you might not get one when you apply. Well some areas have what seems like an infinite heard and the remainder of the permits that aren't applied for can be purchased at any place that sells licenses.





Randall,

Heat is the way to go and if possible some sort of pulling device. I have done a few cars without hydralic pullers and the key was finding a way to fasten the item to a strong possibly unmovable object. I bulled the front end of a ford tempo back in shape by chaining it to a telephone pole at the base on a slight hill. Then I prepped the front end and chained it to a full size chevy. Like a rock with wheels. On the slight hill the truck was enough weight that it could pull on the frame as I heated the ares the needed to be fixed. Closer to the end I needed someone sitting in the truck to apply the brakes so it didn't over pull.



I ended up extending the life of the car by 5 years till it was T-boned.



If you cant do the work yourself in the end you might put out a call for help on craigslist because there are people who can and might be able to do it on the cheap.

Blindstitch said:

Randall,

Heat is the way to go and if possible some sort of pulling device. I have done a few cars without hydralic pullers and the key was finding a way to fasten the item to a strong possibly unmovable object. I bulled the front end of a ford tempo back in shape by chaining it to a telephone pole at the base on a slight hill. Then I prepped the front end and chained it to a full size chevy. Like a rock with wheels. On the slight hill the truck was enough weight that it could pull on the frame as I heated the ares the needed to be fixed. Closer to the end I needed someone sitting in the truck to apply the brakes so it didn't over pull.

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Hi R,



try A piece of pipe through the head tube... long is good (leverage) , Frame locked in Vise and Clamps, top and bottom, and especially behind the bent steering tube. Use two come alongs to spin the pipe/tube back to " True" slowly , keep them tensioned and use a bit of hammer at the places where the metal is most deformed... the metal will (eventually) give in (becomes more malleable as the covalent bonds of the alloy "give up" ) and start to bend. Add a bit more tension and leave it over night... repeat as needed. This is essentially "slow" heating the metal as you are loosning the molecular structure. Some kind of repeated machine or human induced heavy blow or tension will eventually bend most steel alloys... a big collision impact will bend it for sure. (think mass in motion meeting immovable object) All that bs aside,



The issue here is bending it back to it's original form.



This is like bending plastic... when it turns sort of whiteish at the bend, it's molecular structure is changing and it becomes more flexible. The problem here, is that there is essentially no way to bend it back to its original form whether using heat or not without weakening or breaking it. You just cannot stuff the molecules back into their original form, Plastic or Steel.



Enough heat on metal, it will become plastic and weaker... (more ductile as covalent bonds are destroyed, and thinner on the outside radius of the bend) On frame tubing this can put the weak link behind the weld... even if nothing appears compromised, without a magnaflux exam, you will never know how weak it really is.



No, I did not stay in a holiday inn express last night... But I am a MAD Scientist...... and have a few friends who have built race cars, bent and re-build and bent them...



edito: PS... that Jaws of life use is not a bad idea... We have paid for those Hydraulic Rams with our taxes... hmmm, I know some firemen..

Randall, I got the same issue with Maggie. Found this thread on your referral post on the Dual Sport build.



Her head tube is slightly bent, so the front wheel ends up being 3/4" +/- to the left of the rear tire. I have thought of the "pipe thru the head tube" like nolavox recommends. I was thinking on mine of stripping it down to the frame (and a good opp to paint it afterwards) and putting it down on the concrete floor of the basement and use a hydraulic jack and pipe to wedge it under the I-beam in the basement.



Another idea was to carefully cut square the round tube in front of the two engine mount bolts, sleeve another pipe inside, line it all up and weld a bead. I have a MIG welder that could do the work, and have Oxy torch if I just want to heat it all up.



Or, I could just leave it be and live with it! Bike actually rides pretty well with 20 wt oil in the fork (just a minor front steering wobble at 30 mph if one doesn't hold on to the handle bars!).

RAGBrian said:

Her head tube is slightly bent, so the front wheel ends up being 3/4" +/- to the left of the rear tire. I have thought of the "pipe thru the head tube" like nolavox recommends. I was thinking on mine of stripping it down to the frame (and a good opp to paint it afterwards) and putting it down on the concrete floor of the basement and use a hydraulic jack and pipe to wedge it under the I-beam in the basement.

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another great idea... I forgot the "bottle" jack. works like a champ.... But I would not wedge it under a beam or header in a wooden building unless I wanted to raise the roof or level the floors

nolavox said:

another great idea... I forgot the "bottle" jack. works like a champ.... But I would not wedge it under a beam or header in a wooden building unless I wanted to raise the roof or level the floors

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Yea, don't want to raise the roof or the floors!



The idea is this: put the bike on the concrete floor and use one of those jacks that are long enough to pin it to the floor (but no more than that). Then put a piece of pipe in the head tube and then apply force downward to turn the main tube back to level with the rest of the frame, which should straighten it out. Otherwise I would probably attach the frame to a long piece of steel so the frame is vertical and bend the headtube that way.



I have a friend who gave me the H-D sportster mufflers that I am now using, and he has some of these jacks available to me to borrow.



I also have a '82 custom frame, and have though of cutting of the main tube on both frames and welding the head tube from the '78 to the '82 and making it straight. That seemed like a lot of work, so heat and bending of the '78 would be simpler. Don't have a title for the '82 which is why I don't mind sacrificing it for the cause.

RAGBrian said:

That seemed like a lot of work, so heat and bending of the '78 would be simpler.

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There was a guy on here a few years ago that cut the frame tube where it connects to the headstock so he could rake the frontend. If I remember correctly the CX frame at that point has another tube inside it for extra strength. I don't remember his name but he posted a lot of pics of the build, I think it was a 79 custom, he really stretched it out.

If you were to try and heat the frame you would only be heating the outside tube.



edit; I found the thread I was thinking of,,after re-reading it I am not sure about there being an inside tube, here is a link to the thread

http://choppercharles.com/cs/forums/1/14889/ShowPost.aspx#14889



In the 5th post from the top he says

"And about the neck stuff, yeah, I cut it up from the bottom, re welded the inside tube, then re-enforced the outside with I think 1/8" steel."

That is what I remembered but it may not mean there is a double tube.

Randall-in-Mpls said:

I posted an ad on Craigslist this morning, looking for someone who can straighten a frame. We'll see if I get any response.

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Wow! Four replies in the first six hours. Now I have a few leads to pursue.



R

Allan said:

There was a guy on here a few years ago that cut the frame tube where it connects to the headstock so he could rake the frontend. If I remember correctly the CX frame at that point has another tube inside it for extra strength. I don't remember his name but he posted a lot of pics of the build, I think it was a 79 custom, he really stretched it out.

If you were to try and heat the frame you would only be heating the outside tube.



edit; I found the thread I was thinking of,,after re-reading it I am not sure about there being an inside tube, here is a link to the thread

http://choppercharles.com/cs/forums/1/14889/ShowPost.aspx#14889



In the 5th post from the top he says

"And about the neck stuff, yeah, I cut it up from the bottom, re welded the inside tube, then re-enforced the outside with I think 1/8" steel."

That is what I remembered but it may not mean there is a double tube.

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Thanks for the link Allan. I just went over to look at that article and saw the picture you referred to:







Looks like the author cut the backbone, and inserted a piece of steel to fill the opening to extend the fork. I was thinking that I would cut mine just behind the gusseted area, and sleeve the the parts with another piece of tubing cut down to slide inside and weld up the whole assembly.



That chopped Custom does look cool, though I wouldn't probably ever build or ride a bike like that. Getting too old for putting the ol' body in that position!

Does anyone have experience with MAPP gas, or whatever is passed off as MAPP these days? Would it generate enough heat to allow me to bend the steel frame?



It would probably be safer than acetylene for a novice like me. It should be within my budget to buy a MAPP torch. And I've considered getting one for brazing, anyway, but I'd like to know if it would work on the frame before buying.





Thanks,



R

Randall, I have experience with the MAPP gas set you see at the home improvement stores.



I took it back for a return. I thought it would work for very small projects (was brazing some copper tubing for a natural gas line in the house), but ended up deciding the Oxy-Acetylene set I own is still the way to go.



MAPP gas containers are pretty pricey for the amount of gas. My biggest complaint was that the valves they use are threaded opposite of each other. So I had one closed and one open and lost a whole tank of gas (or oxygen, don't remember). The valves they use are not very precise and getting the flame just right was a pain.



I bought a Oxy set years ago and it works well. I ran out on the tanks I have had for years, so I exchanged them for full tanks of oxy and acetylene at a local gas supplier. 10# of acetylene and 20# of oxygen was less than $100. When you buy for the first time, you pay for the bottles so factor in additional costs. After that point, you bring the old bottles in and exchange for new gas. These smallest sizes are best for the occasional use and for the small garage, IMHO. If you are doing a LOT of gas welding or brazing, larger bottles are needed. The gas supplier can help you with usuage guidelines.



Also, I found out that one can also use the set for Oxy/Propane brazing/heating. Yep, those 20# Propane bottles can be the gas used for heating and certainly brazing. The flame is cleaner than using Acetylene but doesn't have any sheilding gas affect that the Acetylene gas has. This may be an possibility for heating the frame good enough for bending.



As for safety, anything using heat and flame is hazardous. I got a book years ago on welding and brazing and learned a lot, then practiced a bit outdoors. With the internet today, there is tons of videos/info on welding/brazing. You should have no problems with using the gear.



Beware, once you get into oxy/gas you start pricing electric welding. I also got a MIG welder with the gas setup, and I am looking at either building a homebrew AC stick welder or modding the MIG to do light stick welding. It's pretty cool to work with this stuff!

I have the small mapp/propane and oxy kit(small hand held size bottles). It works alright for small applications but probably would not work for straightening a frame, I find it useful for heating rusted nuts on old cars etc where it is not easy to lug the larger gear to. If you were using it a lot, it would be costly, the oxygen in the small tanks does not last too long.



I also have an oxy/propane setup, I was going to get acetylene but here you have to get a contract, and I figured I would not use that much to make it worth while.

The propane works fine ,it is a bit slower than acetylene but other than that I find it almost as good. I can use it for cutting too.



Also(like Brian) I have a mig welder