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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
BE SURE you have placed your vote on the poll, it will help me to know how many parts to order and how much I need to beg & borrow from a friend to place the orders. Part to make 50 of these things really adds up.



As I collect data I'm going to try and keep it all in this one thread regarding electric fans we know that will fit, controller methods people have used and of course project on my variable speed controller. RIght now I (and others) have data spread all over the place.



Found another candidate today and it went home with OldOkie for analysis.



07 Suzuki GSXR1000



7" blade diameter x 1-3/4" thick if you move the electrical connector.



It has no integral shroud but a revolving one that connects the outside of the blades.



Nice three-point mounting bracket but would have to be manually spaced back from the radiator a little so the blade/shroud asembly wouldn't touch.



2.5 amps at 12V, moves a ton of air and is really quiet in operation.



Pictures of this to follow, along with some of the specific year Ninja fan NOT to buy.



Also have a fan from a Yamaha R1 on the way that really sounds promising.



One thing OldOkie keeps pointing out - current draw isn't as much an issue as you'd think since unless you're stuck at a light for hours the fan isn't going to be running much regardless of the control method used.



I've just added (or tried to add) a poll to the top, in knowing how much interest there might be will better help me come up with some final pricing numbers since I can get price breaks on some of the components if I order in volume.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Oh, and let's try to keep this to data involving:



1) What we know will mount

2) What will mount without altering the camshaft

3) Dimensions

4) Type of build (# of blades, mounting ears, etc

5) Pictures

6) Current draw



and other comments relating to the subject.
 

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How about ON/OFF temps.



I have installed the BWD TFS500 fan control switch from a '83 Honda Civic 1500 cvcc.

I checked it out in a pot of water on the stove and got a "on" of 198f

and a "off" of about 190f



My fan now turns on when my temp gauge is at 7/10th gauge sweep instead of the 9/10th it did with the stock switch.



It only turns on when I am going less than 20mph for a long time or sitting at a light.

it turns off at about 6/10th. while running the road, my temp stays at 5/10th like always.

If I run at over 80mph for a long time, the temp will rise to ~6/10th.



I have a dual temp gauge setup. so I can see my stock gauge & a aftermarket at the same time.

Looks like my bike runs at ~185f most of the time. and will get up to just under 200f when sitting at the light and the fan will turn on.



I have not got it hot enough to know what 9/10th on the stock gauge represents, but it seams to be somewhere between 210-215f



I now think the ideal thermo-switch to add a electric fan would be 90c(194f) - 95c(203f)

Unless you want the variable controller Marshallf3 is building. that would be the cats meow.



Remember, the thermostat is not due to be fully open until between 199f-205f per the factory manual. so even if you sit at a light or idle for hours, the fan will not turn on until the thermostat is fully open.



With a variable controller, I think I would want the "Start" point to be ~190f on the radiator output, and full speed at 205f.



But that is just IMO.

Good thread Marshall!
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
With a variable controller, I think I would want the "Start" point to be ~190f on the radiator output, and full speed at 205f.


Thanks, as we keep seeing stories about fans grenading and taking out radiators it won't be long until they're as souught after as working CDIs were and still are to some extent.



We also have the fact that a lot of the "factory" replacement fans are 30 years old or made from the same brittle plastic. They also run and take HP from the engine when they don't need to.



The temp sensor input on my circuit is designed to monitor the temp of the water leaving the radiator at the bottom and returning to the engine which we've found to be around 170*. If your thermostat opened and the radiator took care of the cooling the fan isn't going to come on if it doesn't need to, and if it needs to it turns on then adjusts down in speed to the minimum required to maintain that water output temp.



It also has the option of moving a jumper to put it on the "high range" where it can be used with a temp sensor in the conventional spot or on top of the radiator.



I'll list all the specs and specifics before the weekend is over and I've verified operation as intended. It has a lot of extras to it as well. It's simple enough that an experienced builder could "breadboard" it on those PC boards with all the holes in them but since I've got a lot of other projects I can fit onto one board I'm just going to shell out the $500 or so $$ to get a custom run of PC boards made professionally.
 

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specific year Ninja fan NOT to buy



Huh?



I just bought a ZX6R fan from Ebay which I'm told was 197X40mm

Not sure of year and wont get it until next week, but have a BFH which says it will fit
 

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Thanks, as we keep seeing stories about fans grenading and taking out radiators it won't be long until they're as souught after as working CDIs were and still are to some extent.



We also have the fact that a lot of the "factory" replacement fans are 30 years old or made from the same brittle plastic. They also run and take HP from the engine when they don't need to.



The temp sensor input on my circuit is designed to monitor the temp of the water leaving the radiator at the bottom and returning to the engine which we've found to be around 170*. If your thermostat opened and the radiator took care of the cooling the fan isn't going to come on if it doesn't need to, and if it needs to it turns on then adjusts down in speed to the minimum required to maintain that water output temp.



It also has the option of moving a jumper to put it on the "high range" where it can be used with a temp sensor in the conventional spot or on top of the radiator.



I'll list all the specs and specifics before the weekend is over and I've verified operation as intended. It has a lot of extras to it as well. It's simple enough that an experienced builder could "breadboard" it on those PC boards with all the holes in them but since I've got a lot of other projects I can fit onto one board I'm just going to shell out the $500 or so $$ to get a custom run of PC boards made professionally.


ouch! now that's expensive
I appreciate your resourcefull DIY on this... All these componenents are readily avaliable from a number of sources.

thermostatic fan controllers etc



an 8" fan 1-1/4" deep



and the thread from REG re His Temp Guage : http://cx500forum.com/index.php?/topic/1273-is-it-warm-in-there-or-is-it-me/



and I see he is posting at same time I am... I'll go see what the "VoX of Reason" is up to




xpost from is it warm thread:I finally got around to pulling a temp sender at the yard. The thread is a 16mm x 1.5 An adaptor bushing to 1/8 npt will allow use of many different temp guages.



I also found this, which might be usefull for the elctric fan conversions... not sure of the fitting size? http://www.jcwhitney.com/in-line-fan-thermostat-switch/p2000846.jcwx?filterid=c1646j1



Yes this one is expensive
lots of other options though.



how much current are you allocating for fan operation? It seems like these lectric fans like to run when motors are idling (hot) and that might be a larger current draw than our batteries will appreciate at below charging RPM. I'm also concerned about keeping the stator electrically happy
 

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I also found this, which might be usefull for the elctric fan conversions... not sure of the fitting size? http://www.jcwhitney.com/in-line-fan-thermostat-switch/p2000846.jcwx?filterid=c1646j1







how much current are you allocating for fan operation? It seems like these lectric fans like to run when motors are idling (hot) and that might be a larger current draw than our batteries will appreciate at below charging RPM. I'm also concerned about keeping the stator electrically happy




That fan "switch" is for oil coolers and the like. still a cool idea, but the inner passage would be to small.



As far as fan current is concerned, my stock GL650 fan pulls 4 amps while in use. the other, replacement fans, that have been tested. (like the ducati 1098) have shown to draw only ~2 amps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
OK, as promised here's some pix of that promising Suzuki fan I talked about along with the Kawasaki fan to avoid.



http://www.innoengr.com/images/cx500_fans/fan pix/



It was being sold as a Kawasaki Ninja fan, I think 1986, but the part # crossed exactly to ones people have used so I figured it should be the same thing. Wrong - the motor is just too tall at 3-5/8" Apparently these are interchangeable between that bike because roomis not an issue to them.



The Suzuki fan definitely spits out a ton of air, is about as quiet as any fan pumping that amount of air would be and seems to be in perfect balance. Due to its size and the fact you've got to space it back about 1/8" from the radiator fins would make it a bit more of a challenge but I'll have a report on it probably by Sunday night. Still coming is another fan but it won't be here for a week or so, slow shipper.
 

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a couple pics of the thermostat housing showing the temp sender (from a junkyard bike) ... this was after I cleaned it a bit.




and a pic of the temp sender itself.
(yes it was a stuck mutha)
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Seems to be working fine but I'm going to want to try out some different fans, I may need to tweak the input network for the fault sensing part a bit.



Looks complicated on paper but it really isn't, could be duplicated on common perfboard if you're into soldering. Since I've got enough other projects designed to make a decent order I'm just going to have some PC boards professionally produced after I finalize this and some other layouts. Nice thing about this circuit is it's highly versatile in adjustment and sensor placement so it could be added on to any bike or car even if it already has a fan or two.



(NOTE: This isn't the final schematic, there may be a couple of changes after I test some more of these different fans I got in today)

http://www.innoengr.com/images/fan_controller.jpg



Obviously it's going to take me some time to write up a revised bill of materials and double check it, I've made some changes to the original design along the way.



Somewhere in one of those other threads is a description of how it works, I'll find it, double check it for accuracy then bring that over here too. You can get a basic understanding of how the "brains" of the circuit works if you read through the datasheet on the controller IC:



http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/21756b.pdf
 

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With the fault indicator circuit putting out 5v, I guess we will Have to use LED's for it.

Not to hard really and what I had Planned to do anyway.



With this controller in place, what would happen if you put a switch in place to manually provide system voltage to the fan? a manual bypass switch to put it on full all the time without disconcerting the controller.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Yea, I was going to add more output capability to the FAULT output but it would drive the cost and complexity up and I figured most people wouldn't want anything more than a small red LED anyway. If you want to drive anything bigger you can simply add a 5V relay as it will easily drive one.



No problem putting a bypass switch on it, it would just go across the negative fan terminal to the ground. Quite honestly, if you hook it up the easy way where it monitors the water temp going back into the engine and get the adjustments set where you like them you'd never need to manually bypass it except in the rare possibility the circuit itself failed, in which case you just ground the negative lead of the fan to the frame somewhere.



If you construct it I've got no control over what components you use or how well you can solder, when I build something I use only 105*C electrolytics, 1% resistors and top line name brand parts from a true industrial supplier - nothing surplus. I've been doing that for decades because long ago I found that cutting corners usually isn't worth it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
And here's what the controller I designed will do:



1) It's designed to be mountable without removing the radiator so if you already have an electric fan it's an easy add-on.



2) It's fully variable speed using PWM control (small size, virtually no heat generated thus a small enclosure) and due to the PWM drive methodology will keep most any fan turning even at very low RPMs.



3) It's user adjustable as far as the turn on point and rate of speed increase with temp rise. The adjustment controls for both are precision 25 turn potentiometers set up such that 1 turn = 1* of change.



4) It's also set up such that it can be used in one of two temperature ranges by changing a jumper. This allows you to mount the sensor low on the radiator to sense the output water temp or high on the radiator. (or anywhere else it's hot)



5) It gives the fan a 1 second "kick start" of full current to get it up to speed before the variable kicks in and it lowers itself to where it needs to be, most electric fans won't start from a dead stop with just a little voltage applied.



6) It attempts to guard against fan failure or a dying fan by hitting it with full voltage if it senses something's wrong. It also incorporates an optional warning light output that signals if the fan stops working, slows way down from where it should be or if the bike gets unusually hot.



7) It allows you to keep the current temp gauge and sensor in place.



8) It is preferrably hooked up to monitor the temp of the water LEAVING the radiator before it's fed back into the engine. This allows better control because, if you're cruising, you may be getting really hot water from the engine but the existing wind flowing through the radiator may be enough by itself to cool it



9) It has a temperature output to drive a digital or dot/bar style gauge. This is user selectable to be an output of 10 mV/degree Centigrade or Faranheit. There is also a user adjustable 25 turn offset trimmer for this.



10) The modern MOSFET output driver has a typical on resistance of only 0.0021 ohms meaning that a fan drawing 2.5A will only lose around .005 V of the 12V that's driving it - in other words it's virtually a direct connection.



The specified sensor is of the TO-220 style which makes for easy mounting at the bottom of the radiator near the exit hose using any number of methods. (or to the top if you choose that route) The use of this package style also means the temperature sensing die of the IC pays the most attention to area of interest instead of any air that may be blowing across it.



http://rocky.digikey.com/weblib/ST Micro/Web Photos/New Photos/TO-220.jpg

http://www.qsl.net/dl7avf/outlines/to220.gif



The same sensor is also available in a TO-92 package which could be installed into a hollowed out old sensor or anything that would screw into that area of the thermostat housing.



http://www.microsemi.com/drawings/to-92.gif
 

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Any idea when it will be ready and how much I need to ask the bank for?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Any idea when it will be ready and how much I need to ask the bank for?


I'm still a couple of weeks out from my estimates. Parts aren't too terribly expensive, the worst things will be the circuit board and locating a suitable chassis box that will mount in an inconspicuous location - that of course depends on how small I can make the board. I'll have a better idea on pricing for blank boards, kits and finished product forms by that time.



Hopefully by the end of next weekend I'll have a complete BOM so those brave enough to breadboard one can go at it themselves. I don't mind breadboarding the simple stuff but if you can go with a true FR-4 epoxy/glass circuit board it sure saves time.



I'm probably going to "bare wire" the outputs, that way you've got a choice on using expensive connectors or just twisting wires together so to speak. :)



It's always the little things that add up, and I want to keep it as basic and inexpensive as possible.
 

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I've got a drawer in my tool box full of hi end connectors. *grin*
 

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and I want to keep it as basic and inexpensive as possible.
Oh goodie!!! that means I wont have to sell a lobe of my liver. (The kidneys are still on hold for the guy selling is CX650T).



On a side note: I wish I was much more skilled at electrical circuitry then I am. Other wise I would be more than game to just breadboard the thing... but knowing me I would follow the directions and solder the wrong wire to the wrong connector and never be able to figure out what I did wrong. Though if I have to learn immediately then I will do so! (PS if you need to know where the bones in your body are I am good at that!)
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
It would be easy if you used a big enough perfboard, however then it would end up being a large piece to hide somewhere. Etching a double-sided PC board will allow me to make it as compact as possible and yes, I intend to post the actual size files for the board along with the gerber files too if you have access to a PC board fab place. Getting boards made isn't cheap by any means but certainly worth it in my opinion, not only due to size reduction but also relaibility factors.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Working on the BOM, sucks not having the bike here.



If anyone gets the chance would you say that 3' or wire would be long ough to go from the sensor to under the seat?



Let's say the sensor is mounted right next to the output radiator hose on the bottom and the control box is situated under the seat (seems to be plenty of rom in there)



Since the sensor needs to be soldered to along with a capacitor I'm wanting to pre-make that cable and I've got a source for some relly nice, tiny 3-conductor ribbon cable.



Be nice to find some two conductor of the same type, considering I'd be ordering in bulk it would be to my advantage to make the fault LED with proper resistor. I'll assume that would be about a 3' run also if you hid the LED somewhere around the gauges?



This is the wire I'm considering for my sensor but I may just get muti-conductor stuff and separate it into strips of three wide.:

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Amphenol/111-2699-988/?qs=2ZPlowQld1PBx1DWKYLuEw==

http://mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/111-2699-988_Rev-.pdf
 
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