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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Further to my triple bypass procedure, I'm struggling getting the motor's engine shaft separated from the drive shaft. I have everything disconnected. I have determined that there is no shaft bolt (at least not one that I can see) and this seems to fall in line with Shep's earlier thoughts. Again, differences between 500's and 650's and even some differences between the GL650's and the E650's as the on-line manual doesn't clearly describe these differences. Having rotated the drive shaft by spinning the back wheel I can honestly state there is no shaft bolt to be seen, felt or otherwise.



Pic 1

You can see the motor has been lowered and pulled forward - when you compare the motor mounting positions with the frame mounting positions. The motor rocks freely. I can lower or raise the motor on the lift quite easily.





Pic 2

Here is a photo with the drive shaft boot pulled towards the rear of the bike exposing the front engine drive shaft (smaller diameter) coming out from the engine housing and connecting into what I'll call the drive shaft that resides and is contained inside the pro-link arm. There is no bolt or nut between the engine and the u-joint futher back (see Pic 3). FYI, the amount of engine shaft showing is exactly the same amount that was showing prior to removing the motor mount bolts. The engine shaft is not separating from the drive shaft, rather it's pulling the drive shaft forward with it when I wiggle the motor forward.







Pic 3

Here you see the drive shaft boot moved forward exposing the u-joint in the drive shaft. In wiggling the engine forward, the pro link drive shaft has been "pulled forward" and you can see more of this u-joint than you would normally see as opposed to how much of the u-joint you'd see if the engine were in it's normal position. The final drive shaft pinion gear at the rear wheel has disconnected itself from the rear wheel planetary drive gear (I can now spin the rear wheel without the driveshaft rotating now). The more I move the engine forward, the more of this pro link drive shaft gets pulled out. The two shafts appear inseparable.





So...I have temporarily jacked the engine back up to the normal resting position so there is no strain on either of the shafts. The question is, what do I do now?



I don't know if there would be some sort of gear puller in reverse (gear pusher?) that could be applied to the two shafts? Do I disconnect the u-joint?...which I've never done before (hell, I've never done any of this before!). Do I continue to pull the motor forward and pull out the entire drive shaft?...if that can even be done given the front wheel is in the way. And even if you could, I'd stll need to separate the two shafts at some time.



Gentlemen, your assistance would be greatly appreciated. I'm stumped.

Johnny
 

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You have me stumped too. The parts fiche for the 650C doesn't show a bolt, but the end of the final shaft seems to be shown with a groove for a bolt. The GL's all show a bolt in the fiches. I don't know how to access a fiche for the E model, that may tell us something. The parts diagram for the C model shows a completely different drive shaft inside the swingarm. I'm just guessing that the shaft is just tight at the end of the coupling of the shaft and engine out put shaft. How to gently tap, pry or persuade it to slide back I don't know. Do you have a manual you can reference for the E Model?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Blue Fox...I don't have a 650E manual. I've been looking for one. They seem to be impossible to find...at least so far.



I may have to pop down to my local Honda dealer and ask the mechanics what to do here.



Yes, I appreciate your moral support on this cause. Thanks.
 

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Blue Fox...I don't have a 650E manual. I've been looking for one. They seem to be impossible to find...at least so far.



I may have to pop down to my local Honda dealer and ask the mechanics what to do here.



Yes, I appreciate your moral support on this cause. Thanks.
I might have a 650e manual in my collection, I will check tonight. I would also be soaking the connection down with your favorite penetrating potion, after all that has been a solid connection for probably close to 30 years. There is a guy on Ebay who has a 650e website, I am sure he has pulled a few of those apart, you might want to ask him. He is in Canada too, so you might use him for parts.
 

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"connecting into what "



The universal joint. You have not pulled the boot far enough in either directiopn to expose the threaded pin.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Ed...I have indeed been putting penetrating oil where the engine shaft and drive shaft meet, in the hope that it might only need this. The good news is the oil is certainly being taken up....thats for sure. I'll look up the Ebay connection you mentioned. If you do find a 650E manual, consider it sold.



Phil, unless there is a "threaded pin" somewhere aft of the u-joint (where I haven't looked, as it's way too far back in there to look - towards the rear inside the pro link), I can assure you there is no other bolt or any such thing holding the drive shaft and engine shaft together. Earlier I spun the rear wheel which freely rotated the drive shaft and engine shaft (in neutral) and with the boot moved fore and aft, my hand in the back, the front, top and bottom with the rotating shaft being coddled all around, there was no treaded bolt or pin or anything. It's an uninterrupted smooth surface through to the u-joint. I can only deduce there is some sort of splined connection holding the two shafts tightly together. The engine shaft being the male and the drive shaft being the female.



Given that when I pulled or wiggled the motor forward, I was then unable to rotate the drive shaft by spinning the back wheel as I had earlier done suggests that the entire pinion gear and drive shaft are held in position simply as a matter of being connected to the engine shaft, with the motor bolted in to position. It can't move forward then.



I gather many transverse twin bikes have a drive shaft bolt. This 650E does not.



I have posted this question on the Auzzy site as well as I understand there are a few 650E's down under. Maybe someone's dealt with this before. It sure is a mystery.



Also, we vacation in Shallotte NC rather frequently, so I'll have to stop by on the way down...maybe this fall. Would like to see your trike.
 

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Johnny, i can assure you that there is no mechanical device holding the final output shaft directly to the driveshaft on a 650e.

No through-bolt.

No circlip, no nuthin`.

The driveshaft is only held in place against a snap-ring on the final output shaft by spring pressure provided by a err,spring, at the final drive end of the shaft.



If the two parts are really that stuck together it must only be due to the fact that they may have never been separated before (or such a long time ago) that they have bonded together due to maybe some light corrosion or the original grease drying out.



Here`s a pic of the two types of final output shaft - the top one installed in the engine is the 650 type and you can clearly see the snap-ring which the UJ snugs up against;













It can take some effort and be a frustrating buisiness when lining the shaft to the engine on reassembly, and also the two components may not separate easily during engine removal if they are not `level` and in the same plane.

I would suggest getting the engine back into position as much as possible (which may be difficult now the rear end of the driveshaft has slipped out of the final drive) or at least get the engine and shaft level (is the engine on a jack?) and then try to ease the UJ backwards off the engine to see if it is in fact free before pulling the engine forward again - if they are not level, say if the engine has dropped slightly, the shaft will bind to the engine shaft and be a bugger to shift back.

If the engine has been dropped as much as is suggested in one of your pics without the driveshaft/UJ being separated that may be the source of your trouble.



When the driveshaft and engine shaft are in their usual operating position the UJ should quite easily be able to move backwards against the spring pressure.

If it doesn`t maybe try a gentle levering action between the UJ body and engine case - use a block of wood to protect the engine case and beware of damaging the output shaft oil seal flange with whatever you use for leverage.

I`ve never had one that dragged the UJ out like that before, i think it`s because you didn`t ease the UJ back before attempting to remove the engine.

It`s a case of moving-the-engine-forward-slightly-while-also-pulling-the-UJ-off-the-shaft-at-the-same-time-while-they`re-still-level sorta` thing.





Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Shep...thanks for this photo from the manual...always interesting what you read and learn. I do need a 650E manual. Yes, it's now referred to as a "Propeller Shaft".



At first I noticed Fig. # 5.9 - being titled "Swinging arm and final drive shaft - all 500 models, CX650 E-D and GL 650 models", AND showing a drive shaft bolt!!! Yikes! Can't be true. There is no bolt on my final drive shaft. My redemption comes in point #2 whereby there is an exclusion for the "E" model. Whew! For a few moments, I thought I was losing it.



So, in reading the copy I gather "that the propeller shaft will be withdrawn with the case". I think they mean the rear gear case? - which they've asked to remove.



Humm....so maybe if I tug on the rear gear case it might pull the propeller shaft out from the engine output shaft???? Is that what you make of it?



Any interpretation on your behalf is appreciated. Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Eurovee...your response came in while I was responding to Shep. OK then, I've got to re-read what you've said, hum and ha a bit, have a look at things. Etc. Yes, the engine is on a lift and I've jacked it up to the correct normal height ...just that it's forward now about an inch. I'll have a look and get back to you with questions. Again....Gentlemen, thanks for your quick responses here. I do appreciate it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
SUCCESS! Motor is out!



Funny how it's the littlest thing...I went back and was easily able to turn the propeller shaft. Still couldn't budge it fore or aft. So I simply pumped the hydraulic ram about 1/4 the regular pump length to increase the height by maybe a 1/4 of an inch. Grabbed the u-joint and it just slid backwards with no resistance at all. So Eurovee's suggestion on alignment (kind of thought I was aligned before but obviously not) and a bit of PB Blaster and presto. Here are two pics.



Pic 1

Here is the exposed engine output shaft. It looks similar to one of those on the pics that Eurovee sent. My finger is pointing to what appears to be a broken spring clip. It's just a ring now...the grab handles on the clip have long gone. It looks like there may be some insignificant nickingr on the shaft. Trying to figure out what that clip would actually do? Especially when you see the propeller/u-joint shaft it connects to in Pic 2.





Pic 2

So how would a spring clip work in this housing? At least there is no corrosion to speak of here.





Ok, it's on to giving everything a Simple Green washdown tomorrow and get the motor to the work bench!



By the way, the rear pinion gear has "found" its way back to the planetary drive gear. Spinning the rear wheel now rotates the propeller shaft. So...how does the oil in the rear gear case stay intact if the propeller shaft can be so easily moved?



Thanks for everyone's assistance here!

Johnny
 

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That was quick Johnny, well done!

That`s a real weirdo final ouput shaft you`ve got there.

It looks like both types in one, never seen one like it.

It`s got the provision for the through-bolt as used on the 500`s (and probably US GL650`s - all 650`s here in the UK have the snap-ring type and later final drive) and the snap ring...



Honda make many changes through the life of their motorcycles and i suppose it could be just one of the things they improved/modified at some point, or could be something they only fitted to certain models/markets. Dunno... (maybe a PO `improvised` it!!)

How many times do we see part number xxxxxxx superceded by part number xxxxxx-x when a change has been made?



The snap-ring looks intact to me, it doesn`t go `all the way round`, there`s usually a gap like on the one in your pic, and there are no "grab handles" at each end - it`s not a circlip.

They don`t actually hold/grip the UJ they just stop it in the correct position along the engine shaft so that the swingarm and UJ both pivot in the same axis and also prevent the machined ends of the splines from `fretting`.



The oil in the final drive (i assume your E has the four-bolt type?) is prevented from leaking into the swingarm by an oil seal on the drive shaft which sits inside the splined section of the coupling at that end.

Seeing as yours was disconnected for a while there is a small chance some oil has leaked out.

When everything`s back together have a quick look at the final drive oil level.
 

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"Also, we vacation in Shallotte NC rather frequently, so I'll have to stop by on the way down...maybe this fall. Would like to see your trike"



Cmon down. It should be running very well by then.
 

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JC, I just saw your post.



I have some resources I can share with you.



I encountered a similar problem when dropping an engine from a CX650E and solved it by aligning engine and rear properly as you found out.



Call me on the weekend.



Oh , this seems to be my 100th post. Feel old.



Stan
 

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SUCCESS! Motor is out!



Funny how it's the littlest thing...I went back and was easily able to turn the propeller shaft. Still couldn't budge it fore or aft. So I simply pumped the hydraulic ram about 1/4 the regular pump length to increase the height by maybe a 1/4 of an inch. Grabbed the u-joint and it just slid backwards with no resistance at all. So Eurovee's suggestion on alignment (kind of thought I was aligned before but obviously not) and a bit of PB Blaster and presto. Here are two pics.



Pic 1

Here is the exposed engine output shaft. It looks similar to one of those on the pics that Eurovee sent. My finger is pointing to what appears to be a broken spring clip. It's just a ring now...the grab handles on the clip have long gone. It looks like there may be some insignificant nickingr on the shaft. Trying to figure out what that clip would actually do? Especially when you see the propeller/u-joint shaft it connects to in Pic 2.





Pic 2

So how would a spring clip work in this housing? At least there is no corrosion to speak of here.





Ok, it's on to giving everything a Simple Green washdown tomorrow and get the motor to the work bench!



By the way, the rear pinion gear has "found" its way back to the planetary drive gear. Spinning the rear wheel now rotates the propeller shaft. So...how does the oil in the rear gear case stay intact if the propeller shaft can be so easily moved?



Thanks for everyone's assistance here!

Johnny
Johnny,



Sounds like you got one of those special Canadian export models. I can't laugh, I have one too. I can't find a manual, but I will try to see if I can find a link on line and post it. Somehow we need to get all these manuals online for reference. There are always 5 or 6 650 turbo manuals advertised, but all the rest are a pain to find. Glad you finally got things pulled apart. Be sure to use to grease that spline when you reassemble. Honda says to use Multipurpose NLGI #2 with MoS2 additive, this is different from the 45% moly that you use on the suspension.
 

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Well boys, the CX650E manual is not.



It is a supplement to the CX500 manual and is thin.



It is written in English, French, German and Spanish and is still only a quarter of an inch thick including the cover. 104 pages total for 4 languages.



It does provide info on the differences of the 650 over the 500, but refers to the 500 manual for all commonalities.



A friend of mine saw it on Ebay a couple of years ago and got it for me as a gift.
 

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Johnny,



I went through h3l1 also trying to drop my engine. Just a little rust can sure make it a bear! Succeeded though, as did you. Persistence is the name of the game. I bet I lost a pound or two in perspiration in the heat dropping mine. Now, if we can just get them back together at some point.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Johnny,



I went through h3l1 also trying to drop my engine. Just a little rust can sure make it a bear! Succeeded though, as did you. Persistence is the name of the game. I bet I lost a pound or two in perspiration in the heat dropping mine. Now, if we can just get them back together at some point.




Yes....I've already lost a pound or two on the removal...got to be worth at least a 5 pounder on reassembly!
 
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