CX500 not sparking - Smoking top of Regulator

rattliff said:

Did resistance test on the stator coil, but haven't checked voltage on it nor the p/u coil while cranking. I need to get my battery charger back from a buddy and see if I can get a good charge on it. I intend to continue jumping to check voltages so as to not run it down - mistake?

Click to expand...

yeah you can check these while jumping it just if you jump it using your truck dont start your truck just let it come straight off the battery , has a bit too much voltage otherwise. check the blue and white wires connector under the seat. your checking motor side connection , each wires AC volts to ground , blue should be around 100 volts , white should be around 80-90 volts while cranking.



pick up coil (bigger CDI module plug under seat) your testing the orange/white wire motor side plug and the light blue/ white wire same plug .. check them to ground should be 0.5 AC volts while cranking.





if you need a wiring diagram i have it online here. Honda 78-79 cx500 wiring diagram save the diagram to your computer and use your zoom in feature to get a good look at it.

She's up!... sort of. Original CDI was at fault!



Ran through stator and coil tests again. Most of my values were on the high end of spec or just above. I was beginning to come to terms with the likelihood of an engine out scenario and then, on Cobram's advice, I decided to try jumping the bike with battery out in the event that a cell was shorted - I had mentioned that I was getting low voltage to the red wire on the ignitech. Battery out, the red wire was still reading very low. Digging through the posts I found Doward's description of how he used a double bullet connector to patch the red wire into the tail light wire in place of the little splicer the provide with the kit. Bingo! Double checked all my connections, gave it some choke and fired it up. Engine raced at full choke so I backed it way off. Idle is solid, but throttle response is choppy - this I attribute to the fact that I have my spare carbs on there and they're pretty buggy.



Tomorrow I'll run through my good set (they were leaking at the float bowl gasket - float level?) and get them ready to mount this weekend. Then new fluids and cleaning up the exhaust. Its still hitting the 90's here almost every day so i'm not so worried about summer getting away from me yet.

Allan said:

I would try the other CDI again before you toss it.



There is no power from the kill switch, it grounds the CDI to stop the engine.



There may be a short in the kill switch wire. If there was a bad connection at the kill switch bullet connector it would be the same as having the wire unplugged, the bike would run but would not shut off when you turned the kill switch off.

Click to expand...

or was it continuity i was talking about on the kill switch? i know i checked it and got a signal on and off when flipping that kill switch. have to look into that .. anyway heres whats going on now. got the bike to spark with that replacement CDI last night , left and right side was sparking .. then i re routed the CDI wire better reconnected and now the left side stopped sparking , right side sparks fine. swapped the right side pink wire to left side yellow coil wire and it sparks when connected that way but will not spark when connected to the correct yellow wire left side lead off the CDI .. so not sparking now on left side yellow lead wire coming off the CDI now. strange. going out now to try to trouble shoot it. redo the ground and check connections.



hope to get her started today.





UPDATE: ok just checked the voltage from the yellow CDI wire to coil and there is some voltage .. like 50 volts .. should be 150 ish? .. sooo what i'm thinking now is this battery might not be putting out enough juice to fire the plug. I'll recharge it so i know i've got a good strong battery goin.

battery spec is around 190 200 CCA so maybe this is it? Does the battery assist in providing voltage to the CDI ? or does it all come from the stator? also this CDI i just picked up could be going out.

CraigBMM said:

or was it continuity i was talking about on the kill switch? i know i checked it and got a signal on and off when flipping that kill switch. have to look into that .. anyway heres whats going on now. got the bike to spark with that replacement CDI last night , left and right side was sparking .. then i re routed the CDI wire better reconnected and now the left side stopped sparking , right side sparks fine. swapped the right side pink wire to left side yellow coil wire and it sparks when connected that way but will not spark when connected to the correct yellow wire left side lead off the CDI .. so not sparking now on left side yellow lead wire coming off the CDI now. strange. going out now to try to trouble shoot it. redo the ground and check connections.



hope to get her started today.





UPDATE: ok just checked the voltage from the yellow CDI wire to coil and there is some voltage .. like 50 volts .. should be 150 ish .. sooo what i'm thinking now is this battery might not be putting out enough juice to fire the plug. I'll recharge it so i know i've got a good strong battery goin.

battery spec is around 190 200 CCA so maybe this is it? Does the battery assist in providing voltage to the CDI ? or does it all come from the stator? also this CDI i just picked up could be going out.

Click to expand...

ok Zegwin came over and we put his Ignitech CDI on it and got spark on both sides but it wouldnt start , fuel related we believe , maybe the carbs need cleaning now as this bikes been sitting a long time , they arent getting fuel into the pistons. we pored some gas straight down the spark plug hole and it sounded like it would start but didnt then after it ate up that fuel nothing so we think the carbs arent getting the fuel into to the pistons . so need to clean those carbs up now. I'm happy because at least now i know what the issues are.





UPDATE: you know i was working on it today and yesterday when we figured we had a fuel issue i was looking at the gas tank today (its off the bike and sitting on the ground) and i noticed the petcock was in the same position as we had it trying to start it . then i wondered why it wasnt dripping fuel all over .. turns out that petcock setting is NOT where the lever points but it has an arrow indicator and THATS where the setting is .. so we had it in the on position instead of reserve when trying to start it . so the little fuel i had put in the tank wasnt flowing in the on position! hahah wow. so it probably will start up after all if its set to the real reserve setting wow. haha . so now i'm just waiting for a working CDI module.

bad news guys . got another CDI module today went to hook it up and test it for spark and as soon as i hooked up the battery positive the bike started smoking. was smoking around the regulator , i quickly started to remove the battery connection but it burned up pretty bad.



ok heres what i believe happened. when i set the battery in the bike i didnt push it all the way in the slot and had a metal chain holding the battery in place so it wouldnt fall out and this metal chain was wrapped around a bare metal part on the bike frame. .. ok what i think happened was that chain holding the battery in place made contact with the battery ground , then when i attached the positive connection last it started smoking . so maybe the battery was sending power throughout the bike grounds ? i did notice the bikes ignition switch was in the start/run position at the time i connected the battery positive.



the regulator got very hot and was smoking around the top of it , wiring running to it maybe , until i could get the positive disconnected. was a real mess . but after i got battery disconnected i did notice the 2 red connector plugs below the regulator , the green wire was all melted at that right side larger red plug connector, the 2 red plug connectors below the regulator. also i did notice that when i connected this new CDI module i pluged the the coil wires up and instead of the yellow to yellow i accidently connected the bike side black/white kill switch wire to the yellow plug on the CDI module instead of the yellow coil wire , it was dark and i missed it .. uuugh i'm so pissed i did that but dont believe this had anything to do with the short . also i think it was smoking at the CDI module ground wire too .. and now it looks like the green ground wire is a little melted near the connector at the CDI box , so looks like some grounds were getting juice ? no idea.





anyways then when i tried reconnecting the battery after getting things sorted out the bike wasnt smoking anymore but it wouldnt do anything when hitting the start button. also would not crank over jumping the starter relay solenoid posts so i'm now thinking the regulator is shot or possibly damaged the starter motor.. would a bad regulator make it not even crank over now ?



oh wow big nightmare . sheeeesh . hope i dont have to replace the whole wiring now.





soo , i'm not the sharpest as far as electrical .. i know a bit but maybe someone can shed some light on what just happened! oh wow .. not cool at all. hope this new CDI i just picked up is ok. where do i start ?







UPDATE: ok thinking about this and the metal chain that had made contact with the battery ground wire .. wouldnt this have no effect as the battery ground wire is doing the same thing right? going to the bike and grounding the battery. so what about a bad battery ? could that have caused power to go to grounds when i connected the positive lead on the battery and had nothing to do with the metal chain contacting the ground post on the battery? or a bad Regulator rectifier ? it did not blow the main fuse near the battery that checks fine.

achille said:

Bummer,I hope that CDI box is still okay.



Almost sounds as though the batt connections were reversed.



Might think about starting a new thread in the tech section.

Click to expand...

that is indeed what happen! i was looking at my battery today , its off the bike now and i had it reversed! can not believe i did that .. man i was sure i checked that before hooking it up . .lession in this is better to do it in daylight rather than in the dead of night! oh man .. now what ? probably fried the regulator eh ?







update: just checked the resistance on the stator all values check ok except the lightblue red wire to ground was 191 ohms should be 99 max per spec. looked at the wiring dirgram not sure what the lightblue/red wire goes to ,, stator ? i need to head to work after i get back will investigate the wiring for damage. i know it got really hot near the Regulator and wires leading to it. uuuuahg dam i'm so ticked i did that. hopefully the CDI box is ok i think regulator is prob fried. should i leave the regulator on to test it hooked up correctly or what? can you test these ?

well after i checked the wiring i decided to try to hook it up .. the right way this time .. and believe it or not the CDI sparks .. i'm getting good spark. I did try to start it but it wouldnt start .. its been sitting many years so not surprised about that .. will try to get the fuel going to it tomorrow .



i'm just surprised the CDI still creates a spark after connecting the battery incorrectly running positive to the ground .





the ground wiring is melted in places but looks like it didnt burn through to any adjacent wires running with the ground wire so maybe i got lucky here.



it was sparking at least! she should start. tomorrow i'll try to get some fuel flowing into the combustion chamber.





stayed tuned ..

If you're getting good spark then much of the electrical system is ok. That's very good news. The bike should run now, although there may be another issue keeping it from starting such as gummed up carbs, bad gas, clogged air filter, etc.



Since there are doubts about the regulator/rectifier, you can unplug it for testing. Obviously the charging system will not work but there will be one less variable to cause confusion while troubleshooting. You can always address it when everything else is working.



Are you certain the main fuse is installed correctly and is the proper value? With the battery hooked up backwards it should have blown quickly before any wiring was damaged.



The metal chain securing the battery sounds like an accident waiting to happen. Is the stock battery tray hardware missing? At the very least an insulating material should be used if there is any possibility of contacting one of the battery terminals - plastic cable ties, rope, whatever.



Any time a wire smokes there is a good possibility it has been damaged internally - the conductor may have fused open. This could result in an intermittent connection that could make or break under vibration. My preference would be to replace it.



If a wire has smoked or melted inside a wiring harness it's possible/probable that adjacent wires have had their insulation compromised. This can cause shorts, either hard or intermittent, that can be extremely hard to track down. The short could be buried deep inside the harness with no visible damage from the outside. In this case it may be best to find a replacement harness from ebay or a parts bike.



At this point, it would be advisable to clean up any wiring that appears questionable. Keep the regulator/rectifier completely unplugged. Try to get the bike running - since you have good spark, concentrate on non-electrical problems.



Finally, return to the charging system when it's running. If the wires are smoked on the regulator/rectifier my preference would be to replace it with a used one from ebay. Even after thirty years the Honda units are extremely reliable and I would not hesitate to install a used one.



You'll need a multimeter to properly assess and troubleshoot the charging system. See this writeup.

DaveF said:

If you're getting good spark then much of the electrical system is ok. That's very good news. The bike should run now, although there may be another issue keeping it from starting such as gummed up carbs, bad gas, clogged air filter, etc.



Since there are doubts about the regulator/rectifier, you can unplug it for testing. Obviously the charging system will not work but there will be one less variable to cause confusion while troubleshooting. You can always address it when everything else is working.



Are you certain the main fuse is installed correctly and is the proper value? With the battery hooked up backwards it should have blown quickly before any wiring was damaged.



The metal chain securing the battery sounds like an accident waiting to happen. Is the stock battery tray hardware missing? At the very least an insulating material should be used if there is any possibility of contacting one of the battery terminals - plastic cable ties, rope, whatever.



Any time a wire smokes there is a good possibility it has been damaged internally - the conductor may have fused open. This could result in an intermittent connection that could make or break under vibration. My preference would be to replace it.



If a wire has smoked or melted inside a wiring harness it's possible/probable that adjacent wires have had their insulation compromised. This can cause shorts, either hard or intermittent, that can be extremely hard to track down. The short could be buried deep inside the harness with no visible damage from the outside. In this case it may be best to find a replacement harness from ebay or a parts bike.



At this point, it would be advisable to clean up any wiring that appears questionable. Keep the regulator/rectifier completely unplugged. Try to get the bike running - since you have good spark, concentrate on non-electrical problems.



Finally, return to the charging system when it's running. If the wires are smoked on the regulator/rectifier my preference would be to replace it with a used one from ebay. Even after thirty years the Honda units are extremely reliable and I would not hesitate to install a used one.



You'll need a multimeter to properly assess and troubleshoot the charging system. See this writeup.

Click to expand...

Thanks Dave , actually the grounding wires took the brunt of the flow and melted and broke open in a few places but i seen wires running next to the green ground wire weren't damaged so looks like i got lucky here.



how do i unplug the Regulator? your talking the 2 red plugs under the Regulator ? unplug both them ?



what amp fuse should this main fuse be? I'll check mine .. i think the regulator got very hot and might have taken alot of the flow before getting to thte main fuse maybe thats why it survived.



what is the conductor your talking about? you mean the ground wire terminals?





Craig

I just checked the wiring diagram for your bike and was surprised - the regulator/rectifier is connected directly to the battery at the solenoid and is not fused. Yikes!! There is nothing to limit the current from the battery through the regulator/rectifier in the event of a malfunction or hooking the battery up backwards.



After looking through several years of CX/GL wiring diagrams, it appears that starting in 1980 Honda increased the main fuse rating from 20 amps to 30 amps, and at the same time moved the regulator/rectifier output connection so that it was fused. The 78's and 79's have the earlier wiring and use 20 amp main fuses.



I had incorrectly assumed all CX/GL's had the later wiring. With the later wiring, if a battery is hooked up backwards then high current flows through the regulator/rectifier for a brief instant but then the fuse blows before anything is damaged.



There are two plugs coming from the regulator/rectifier. Since there is a good chance something may have shorted inside it, I recommend unplugging both.



"...Any time a wire smokes there is a good possibility it has been damaged internally - the conductor may have fused open..." By conductor, I mean the metal portion inside the wire insulation.